Hi guys. I want to replace my old wooden windows with pvc ones. I live in a terraced house dated 1910 and it is been built with solid bricks i think. Before removing the old windows, do i need to support the window opening with metal props to avoid the the brick work to sag in? If so, do i need to prop it downstairs and upstairs. Downstairs i have a bay window, the windows in the bedrooms upstairs are smaller though. Thanks for your time.
supporting the opening
- Thread starter dotto
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It not that easy to answer a yes or no without investigation or at least see photos.
!910s build, yes possibly is solid brick.
Solid brickwork over window openings in a 1910s property may or may not have a lintels or support as there are different methods of window opening construction.
A) stretcher bricks (bricks laid flat end on end) These stretcher bricks do often sit directly on top of the wooden window heads without independent support but there may be metal ties (now rusty and not doing much)set into the perpendicular cement joints which technically hold the bricks back to an inner wooden plate. And it is possible to loose a row of bricks when the old window head is removed unless great care and extra support is given.
B) Soldier bricks (bricks standing vertically) and are more often the construction method most preferred and sometimes in the form of a slight sprung arch, and if it is a sprung soldier arch it is definitely self supporting. It is not always easy to see but there may be a flat steel supporting plate running from one side to the other.
But can I ask why you are changing your timber windows for environmentally unfriendly upvc, can you not repair, paint and draft proof your existing wooden frames? I bet they have more character than the new upvc windows you plan.
!910s build, yes possibly is solid brick.
Solid brickwork over window openings in a 1910s property may or may not have a lintels or support as there are different methods of window opening construction.
A) stretcher bricks (bricks laid flat end on end) These stretcher bricks do often sit directly on top of the wooden window heads without independent support but there may be metal ties (now rusty and not doing much)set into the perpendicular cement joints which technically hold the bricks back to an inner wooden plate. And it is possible to loose a row of bricks when the old window head is removed unless great care and extra support is given.
B) Soldier bricks (bricks standing vertically) and are more often the construction method most preferred and sometimes in the form of a slight sprung arch, and if it is a sprung soldier arch it is definitely self supporting. It is not always easy to see but there may be a flat steel supporting plate running from one side to the other.
But can I ask why you are changing your timber windows for environmentally unfriendly upvc, can you not repair, paint and draft proof your existing wooden frames? I bet they have more character than the new upvc windows you plan.
Hi Stevethejoiner and thanks for answering. The top of the window cutting on the ground floor, has indeed an arched brick course, which as you clearly explained will not need any support... I am not sure about the first floor. Assuming the first floor has a straight horizontal brick course, would I have to support it before moving the old window?
Why do I want to replace them? It is a good question...probably because I do not want to go through the bother of having to scrap all the old paint off and repainting them which probably won't look that great. That is however a good question and before I dicide to go ahead I will definitely consider that option. Thanks for your time.
Why do I want to replace them? It is a good question...probably because I do not want to go through the bother of having to scrap all the old paint off and repainting them which probably won't look that great. That is however a good question and before I dicide to go ahead I will definitely consider that option. Thanks for your time.
I installed windows for twenty years or so and we never lost the brickwork over the heads as there is usually a lintel, steel plate or sprung arch. All I would say is take it slow and easy, cut out wood cill, head and jambs rather than levering them out. If you are in doubt and have concerns regarding the bricks above, first remove the cill then put a prop from the cill brick line upto the front edge of the bricks you want to support. You can then carefully remove the head and jambs by cutting them out gently keeping disruption to a minimum.
The advantage of propping them is that it will help keep the bricks safe until your ready to fit the new window.
The advantage of propping them is that it will help keep the bricks safe until your ready to fit the new window.
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If you have brickwork resting on existing timber frames without a lintel, even if you manage to replace the frames without the bricks dropping, you will find that the new plastic frames are not strong enough to support the bricks, and experience more expansion/contraction movement, and the brickwork will sag, crack and loosen in a short time, and the head of the frame may bow
Hi guys and thank you very much for your inputs. The ground floor window opening in my sitting room where the bay window is has as i said a slight sprung arch and the bedrooms upstairs have vertical bricks lined in a straight line right on the top of the window frame. Also my house has been covered with pebble dash all over, would that help to keep the bricks in place without propping the openings up? Also because of the pebble dash i can not remove the windows from outside without damaging the pebble dash which is encasing the windows all around, i will have to remove them from the inside which makes it difficult to to put props in place. Do you think i can get away with not propping the openings up and remove the windows from the inside? Thanks again for your time.
As woody says, if there is no lintel your going to end up putting them in.
With cavity construction it is the inner brick skin that supports the lintel, the outer skin is for weather protection and cosmetic reasons. Even on timber framed properties it is the internal timber frame, not the outer brick skin, that supports the upper floors and roof.
So with your solid wall built house any lintel or supporting plate (possibly timber) should be running side to side just behind where your curtain tracks are fitted, ie on the inner part of the wall.
And as I said before, the external vertical soldier bricks should have a steel bar supporting them just over window head. So with care you should be fine.
Worse case scenario is you lose the soldier course, the house wont fall down, unless that is your taking out a load bearing bay window without acrow supports.
And no, pebble dashing wont hold the bricks in place, in fact the additional weight could compound the problem if you have no lintels.
Another point on pebble dashing. If you are not having a survey done and taking the responsibility of measuring the windows and ordering them yourself, can I suggest you ask the manufacturer to supply your windows with ad ons (upvc sections that you can clip onto the outside of the jambs) or wide profile outer frame head and jambs, to take up the thickness of your pebble dashing, usually about 20mm each side.
The typical typical slimline upvc extrusion, meant for face brick houses does not allow for render, pebble dash or trims covering the face of the jambs so if you do not take this into account, you may find the openers rub on the pebble dash. and you will end up chopping off the dashing to get the windows to open.
With cavity construction it is the inner brick skin that supports the lintel, the outer skin is for weather protection and cosmetic reasons. Even on timber framed properties it is the internal timber frame, not the outer brick skin, that supports the upper floors and roof.
So with your solid wall built house any lintel or supporting plate (possibly timber) should be running side to side just behind where your curtain tracks are fitted, ie on the inner part of the wall.
And as I said before, the external vertical soldier bricks should have a steel bar supporting them just over window head. So with care you should be fine.
Worse case scenario is you lose the soldier course, the house wont fall down, unless that is your taking out a load bearing bay window without acrow supports.
And no, pebble dashing wont hold the bricks in place, in fact the additional weight could compound the problem if you have no lintels.
Another point on pebble dashing. If you are not having a survey done and taking the responsibility of measuring the windows and ordering them yourself, can I suggest you ask the manufacturer to supply your windows with ad ons (upvc sections that you can clip onto the outside of the jambs) or wide profile outer frame head and jambs, to take up the thickness of your pebble dashing, usually about 20mm each side.
The typical typical slimline upvc extrusion, meant for face brick houses does not allow for render, pebble dash or trims covering the face of the jambs so if you do not take this into account, you may find the openers rub on the pebble dash. and you will end up chopping off the dashing to get the windows to open.
As the property dates from 1910, it is most likely solid 9" walls.
The upper floor vertical bricks (soldiers) will be built off the frame only, and the inner skin may be a timber or concrete lintel. The render may not hold the solders and there is more chance of them slipping than if the brickwork was bonded
Rather than mess about worrying and risking unsupported bricks dropping, if these are near the eaves, it will be easier to take the bricks out up to the soffit and then put the frame in before fitting a tray lintel and making good the brickwork.
Otherwise, its a case of working really really fast, once the old frame is out
The upper floor vertical bricks (soldiers) will be built off the frame only, and the inner skin may be a timber or concrete lintel. The render may not hold the solders and there is more chance of them slipping than if the brickwork was bonded
Rather than mess about worrying and risking unsupported bricks dropping, if these are near the eaves, it will be easier to take the bricks out up to the soffit and then put the frame in before fitting a tray lintel and making good the brickwork.
Otherwise, its a case of working really really fast, once the old frame is out
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