Suprima pressure loss

[seanwosere]

I have a a Suprima boiler and i am having pressure loss problems. There are no signs of leakage on any of the surface pipework, yet we were loosing pressure ie. going below 1 bar in about 5 hours. This all happened out of the blue one day. We had not been doing any works to the flat, or to the system, so it is not a leak that has been caused by damaging a pipe.

70% of the pipework is underground and set in concrete, below a waterproof finish. At the moment we are assuming that this is where the leak is. We decided that as no water was coming back up or showing on the floor, and was dissipating into the soil below, it might be easier to change the pressurised system to a normally vented system and let this top itself up...to hell with the leak, let it drip, or so i thought!

Well that didn't work! We now have the system sucking in enormous amounts of air to the point that some of the radiators will not even heat up....and all that in about 3 hours!

The last thing we want to do is start digging up the floor, we have checked all surface fittings and pipes and found no leeks. What do you guys think about a leak fixing solution? Or going back to a pressurised system and finding some way to constantly repressurise the suystem....Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated .

 

[boxster]

could be hard to find. I would install a new system if i was you and get rid of the suprima we repair them all the time there useless and expensive to repair. get a baxi 105 on a new system. you cant go wrong! the pipes under the floor proberly are not protected. run them on skirting boards and box in if you dont want to dig floors up.

 

[seanwosere]

Thanks Boxster, that was very good advice and if i cannot find any other solution, that is what i will do.....But it is a very expensive and un-attractive solution. The flat is absolutely immaculate and on 2 floors with 14 radiators. That is going to take a lot of boxing in and the tenant will go ape.

Is there any cheaper and better looking alternatives to this .....even a short term fix. I have a uniquely fussy tenant in the flat and i do not want to disturb him if at all possible...Think of the fussiest person you have ever met and multiply this by 100.....you are still not close! He will be going on holiday in the summer for two to three weeks, and i could have the floors dug up and do a proper job then.

Any other ideas....and thanks again Boxster

 

[ChrisR]

A baxi 105 is a combi & a suprima isn't so that one would cause major disruption!. Some Suprimas go on for yonks with no trouble. Changing the boiler won't stop the leak!

Are the upstairs pipes buried in concrete too?

You have a HW cylinder I guess? could be that its heating coil has perforated -it would drip from the over flow (tank above) if not used for a long time , but if used regularly/frequently it would go unnoticed.

If you do have a leak into the floor you can often localise it with an infra red thermometer - mine cost £18. Just look for bits of floor which are extra warm.

Leaving a system constantly refilling is not a long term option - the new oxygen in the water makes it all go rusty.

You could tip some internal leak sealer in, but it may not work of course.

 

[boxster]

chris what i said is replace the system and boiler. however its a tenant. I also have a few properties and know how tricky this can be. tenants expect EVERYTHING! lets see if i was in your posistion i dont want to spend any cash but want the problem fixed quick, as this is the key to any landlord. the leak may be repaired as if its going below 1 bar in 5 hours there must be a large leak...

if its a flat why not fit a combi and run all pipework into a loft space. then run the pipework down the wall to each rad. the pipework can be hidden by trunken or chase it into the wall. forget about the pipework under the floor as it will now be dead pipes. this would repair the leak. normally its fine to run pipes down next to curtians to hide it with trunken infront. the trunken can be papered over or painted. if you pipe the system in 8mm the pipes are very small and would only require a 1 inch chase down the wall to each rad from the loft.

this would save you digging up the floor

or explain to the tenent just be thankfull he has a place to sleep lol these tenents expect alot. I have a tricky one also who says he can smell gas all the time although its been tested 10000000 times i even renewed the pipes to put his mind at rest. lol transco even told him if he phones them one for time they will remove his meter. he keeps phoning them like 5 times day for 5 month...??? K WAZY!

 

[seanwosere]

Thanks Chris

I will try the infra red thermometer ...are they easy to find? We have tested the boiler and the cylinder and neither are leaking.

No the upstairs pipes are not in concrete, and there are no signs of leaking on any of them.

Is there a way to automatically top up the system? My plumber has suggested a pressure reducing valve set at 1 bar permanently left open to the system. He says this may work, but sounds bit dodgy to me. ...Could we use a rust inhibitor to get us over the next 6 months?

We will try the leak sealer on Monday but i am worried about clogging up the system.

Thanks Boxster

Not sure how big the leak is...my plumber says it could be very small.
chris what i said is replace the system and boiler. however its a tenant.

This is a top end flat with power showers, pumps with ridiculous controllers, the lot! A combi would be impossible as the pressure would not get close. The top end Hans Grohe taps and showers even need a +3 bar supply! ...or so i am told.

The flat is 2200 square feet and we were told that the system needed to be run in at least 15 mm due to the length of the runs. we already have 2 pumps on the system.

Regarding your tenant smelling gas, we had a similar problem after fitting a Keston high efficiency boiler to a different property. Apparently though not noxious, the stuff the Keston expels smelled like gas and we had to get Transco to test and confirm to the tenant that it was OK. You cannot blame a tenant for these types of concerns, gas is dangerous stuff and i would not like to be near a bad installation. As a matter of course we always put a carbon monoxide detector in all our boiler rooms just to be on the safe side.....This tenant tried to sue us for £35k because rain had bounced off his window sill through a window and on to a table top! It cost us £1500 in legals before he realised he was going to loose! That is a problem tenant!

A side note about the Keston boiler...not sure which one....On that property we have a Thames Water Central Heating Repair Policy. They have said that they will not cover this property again as they have had too many problems with Keston boilers...so much for the push to get everyone to install condensing boilers!

 

[boxster]

wow, thats just crazy!

 

[ChrisR]

OK Boxster I take your point - it sounds completely different that way round. Not a lot of help to Sean as it happens.

Has you plumber checked the pressure in the pressure vessel? if it's too high, or if the PV diaphragm has burst and the vessel is full of water, your pressure will drop very quickly on the loss of a tiny amount of water.

There is a thing called a Robofill (?) which would fill as you suggest - but goodbye to your system - though I suppose you could pump £20 worth of inhibitor into your system every month.

I wonder how the heck your man checked the cylinder for internal leaks it could be a smallish amount - see above.

It would seem to be an option to partially repipe at some more convenient time - dropping pies down from upstairs to downstairs. [typo there - dropping PIPES...!]
Pu a couple of tubes of leak sealer in - only solidifies when hot and wet with air (theleak)

Got my IR thermo online try google.
The pipes usually leak where the pipe enters the concrete - so the problem is often not far down.

Ir thermometer

 

[boxster]

i would still expect to see some sort of damp patch.. anyways your right i rekon testing for temp will work, never even thought of doing that before.

 

[seanwosere]

Thanks Chris

We are sure that this is a leak/problem somewhere in the system, and not in the pressure vessel, because we have removed the pressure vessel and gone back to a conventional header tank. We are not so much seeing the pressure loss or leakage now, but seeing ( and hearing ) an enormous amount of air entering the system within 3- 5 hours. The air is so bad that you hear water running through the pipes and rads and the boiler makes some pretty horrific noises. Also one and then later two radiators go cold. The tenant says he cannot listen to his stereo due to the noise!

Do you really think we will need to add the inhibitor that regularly, as again these regular visits will cause more complaint from the tenant. Will do a search for a Robofill.

Not sure how the plumber checked the cylinder, but he said he had!

when i first got a computer and didn't know what i was doing, i sent out a letter where all references to "pipework" were changed by the spell checker to " pepperoni"!

Will let you know how i get on with the IR thermometer!

Thanks again

Sean

 

[seanwosere]

Hi Boxster

Thanks for your comment. Nope, we have looked everywhere and there are no signs of any damp patches. Guess we did a very good job on the floor waterproofing!

Will let you know how this progresses.

Regards

Sean

 

[seanwosere]

Hi Chris

One more question....How would we use the IR themometer, because the central heating pipes are going to show up heat anyway, and will also be heating up the concrete around them. The leak is going to be at the same temperature. Is your IR thermometer sensitive enough to be able to show that the there is a bigger radiation area of heat around the leak?

regards

Sean

 

[krispy]

Just my £0.02 wth but I have added dye before to locate leakage, not an ideal solution (can be messy) dig up the entire install ? or find the dye ?
use a dye suitable for finding leakage in drains.

 

[seanwosere]

Thanks for your idea Krispy........Unfortunately that will not show on the surface as the tanking is stopping the water from showing and would do the same with the dye. ....Or did you mean dig up anyway and use the dye to help spot the leak?.......if we have to dig up it has to be a good idea to us ethe dye too, but at the moment that is what i am trying to avoid.

How much water do you guys think I am loosing, or put another way, how severe is the leak? ....Apparently when refilling the loop, it takes about 4 minutes to reach 1.1 bar, and we were refilling every 24 hours.

Thanks Sean

 

[krispy]

Sean
you say the flat is on 2 floors, dye will show through ceilings if on upper floors if not then you are getting closer to the leak being on the ground floor area?