Swap Randall 4033 with Hive Active

Michael Hextall · 21 Jun 2018

Hi,

I have been thinking about moving to Hive Active for a while now and have just bought our first house so thought it might be a good time to make the switch. The boiler and control system in our house is 20+ years old so I am trying to find out how difficult/easy it might be to swap from a fairly old Randall 4033 heating/water controller to the more modern Hive system, any ideas?

Thanks
Mike

stem · 21 Jun 2018

It may not just be the controls that need updating. Much will depend upon the rest of the system being controlled. Fitting the latest electrical wizardry to an antiquated plumbing system that won't be able to make the best use of it is a waste of money IMHO.

You need to tell us about the rest of the system. For example, does it have a motorised valves (or valves) controlling it (aka S-Plan or Y-Plan) or is it a system where just the radiators receive water from the pump and the hot water cylinder is heated by natural circulation? (ie hot water rises, cool water falls) Do you have a room thermostat? Does your hot water cylinder have a thermostat?

I have installed several Hives & Nests as well as assisting others to do so, but don't have either in my home. Personally they don't provide me with any useful advantages over my existing controls. I have no desire to change the settings whilst in the pub, or Tesco's, so it all depends on what you want to achieve. No users that I know of have reported noticing any energy savings after fitting them if that's what you are looking for. They look nice on the wall though.

Michael Hextall · 21 Jun 2018

Basically what I am looking for is a way to give me more control over when and how long the heating and hot water is on for. It looks as though the clock on the Randall 4033 is no longer functional meaning I cannot set a time for the heating and water to come on and go off, however, they can still be turned on and off manually with the toggle switch. The Hive system ticks more boxes in terms of my desire to have the latest technology in my home (because I am that sort of person), however, I also have to balance that against a tight budget and the need to keep my home warm and cozy for my wife and two young children. If that means the Hive systems is not suitable then I am all ears for an alternative.

Hot&Cold · 21 Jun 2018

Michael Hextall so which type of system do you have ?

stem said:
You need to tell us about the rest of the system. For example, does it have a motorised valves (or valves) controlling it (aka S-Plan or Y-Plan) or is it a system where just the radiators receive water from the pump and the hot water cylinder is heated by natural circulation? (ie hot water rises, cool water falls) Do you have a room thermostat? Does your hot water cylinder have a thermostat?

System controls vary from house to house

75pete · 21 Jun 2018

I also had a very old control/programmer on my Yplan heating system and updated it to Hive Active heating and hot water. Don't know much at all about Nest, think Nest and Hive are much the same after doing some reading before I went for Hive. I found Hive ( fitted now a few months ) easy to program and very user friendly via the app. I did chat with Hive help when doing the finial set-up just to double check I had done it correct, was very pleased with the chat and Hive was able to see my system was live and fault free.
Like you, I also asked some question on this site and was pleased with the help offered by stem and others. So, as said, tell us as much as you can about the heating system you have and if poss take a few pictures. Good luck.
Pete

Michael Hextall · 21 Jun 2018

I’ve taken pictures of everything that is associated with the generating of hot water and heating that I can easily get too. The previous owners tell me that the boiler itself is behind the gas fire and is a “baxi” ??

stem · 22 Jun 2018

Thanks for the photos. I can see a room thermostat and also a thermostat on the hot water cylinder, so that's promising. But what are they operating? Usually the thermostats are connected to either: two single port motorised valves, or one 3 port motorised valve to provide control the heating and hot water. They look something like this: (other makes are available) they can often (but not always) be found close to the pump.

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stem
1 Apr 2010
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stem
26 Mar 2010
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..and they are connected into the system as shown in these simplified drawings. Can you confirm if you have such devices or not?

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stem
17 Apr 2013

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stem
17 Apr 2013
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The absence of such valves would usually mean that you cannot have the central heating 'on' on its own without the hot water also being 'on' at the same time? (the hot water will work alone without the heating)

The old back boiler will be very inefficient, with a good percentage of the heat produced lost up the chimney. My first priority would be to get rid of it. It's a good idea to do this before in actually fails because installing a new boiler in an alternative location is not a simple task and it is better to do it during the summer when you don't need the heating, rather than being without heat for a few weeks in the middle of winter because it has failed. If you install new controls with the old boiler, then they may need altering / rewiring then anyway, especially if you go for a combi.

Michael Hextall · 22 Jun 2018

I think the valves and pump you referred to may be behind an enclosed section next to the gas fire, as its hollow. The problem is the screws and the joints are encased in what looks like years of paint and I'm not sure my wife would approve of me making a mess to dig them out as we only moved into the house on Friday. I suspect this may be where we leave it for the time being until we have the money to replace the boiler which I can't see being any time soon.

stem · 22 Jun 2018

Thanks for the update. Your system is of the age where it might have them, or it might not. However, as I said, the two thermostats look promising, but the boiler, thermostat and programmer are old designs. Although the Randall programmer is still available, I haven't seen one installed as part of a new installation for decades, so it makes it difficult to be certain exactly how old it is. My guess would be early 1980's.

It's probably best to update the controls when you change the boiler. AFAIK you can't get replacement back boilers now anyway as they have open flues and don't meet the current efficiency requirements. (your existing Baxi Bermuda may be as low as 50% efficient!) When it does fail, the usual recourse is to have an 'A Rated' (ie 90% plus efficiency) wall mounted boiler with new controls anyway. If you are going to keep the back boiler for the immediate future, because it is not room sealed meaning that the combustion process is open to the room it would be wise to invest in a CO2 detector.

Michael Hextall · 22 Jun 2018

stem said:
Thanks for the update. Your system is of the age where it might have them, or it might not. However, as I said, the two thermostats look promising, but the boiler, thermostat and programmer are old designs. Although the Randall programmer is still available, I haven't seen one installed as part of a new installation for decades, so it makes it difficult to be certain exactly how old it is. My guess would be early 1980's.

It's probably best to update the controls when you change the boiler. AFAIK you can't get replacement back boilers now anyway as they have open flues and don't meet the current efficiency requirements. (your existing Baxi Bermuda may be as low as 50% efficient!) When it does fail, the usual recourse is to have an 'A Rated' (ie 90% plus efficiency) wall mounted boiler with new controls anyway. If you are going to keep the back boiler for the immediate future, because it is not room sealed meaning that the combustion process is open to the room it would be wise to invest in a CO2 detector.

Thanks for the advice @stem I will get a CO2 detector

75pete · 22 Jun 2018

Michael Hextall said:
Thanks for the advice @stem I will get a CO2 detector

In the news today, some co2 detectors sold on Internet sites are failing tests carried out by Watchdog !

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Swap Randall 4033 with Hive Active

Hot&Cold

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