Technology taking over?

[Burnerman]

I drove a new VW Tiguan 4x4 automatic at the weekend, and discovered that it had a 'Park Assist' button. Having had fun with its front and back seeking radar parking sensors, I had to give it a try.
There was a gap between 2 parked cars, about 1 1/2 times the length of the Tiguan. I drove just past the parking space, put it into 'R' - and it reversed into the parking space for me...hands off the wheel....it even put the brakes on when it was in place. I then engaged 'D' and the wheel spun again, and pulled forward until there was an equal gap between the cars behind and forward of me.
Well scary - but equally impressive! What ever next?
John

 

[Peter.N.]

Hi John

This 'hi tech' is alright when it works, but as demonstrated by the Toyota debacle, it sometimes doesn't. I'm a real Luddite, only run IDI engines and cars that I can repair myself. The Citroen XM 2.1 td is capable of 300,000 miles without major surgery, except perhaps a head gasket and it has no engine ECU so won't leave me stranded for want of a computer

Have you ever driven a Citroen CX? they were a fantastic car to drive and park, all done by mechanicals though.

Peter

 

[Burnerman]

Hello Peter
I completely agree with your sentiments.....I guess the thing with such vehicles is to never let them get out of warranty as the repair costs are potentially massive!
I've never driven CX's but have had 2 of the BX diesels...brilliant to drive, brick wall brakes and total comfort - but one of the most amazing things was their resistance to corrosion. Hydraulic pipes aside, the steel panels just didn't rust.
John

 

[Peter.N.]

Hi John

We have had several BX diesels and in their time they were brilliant cars, the TD was one of the original 'hot hatches'. The CX though was something entirely different, the front suspension had central steering knuckles which gave the car extrordinary stability, backwards force such as going through water or even a flat tyre didn't affect the steering, in fact I drove one up the newly opened M5 with a flat front tyre tyre without knowning it, apart from a somewhat rough ride which I initially put down to the road surface

The steering had the 'diravi' system, it automatically powered back to the straight ahead position if you let the wheel go but got stronger the faster you went, the low speed maneuverability was amazing, the 'Safari' estate was nearly 17' long but you could park it on a sixpence almost because the steering was so light, it was also very directionally stable, its the only car I have driven that will go in a straight line if you hold the wheel still, overtaking on the motorway only needed a few degrees on the wheel. I did over 150k miles in the last one I had.

They had the smoothest diesel engine on the road in their time, not bad even by modern standards, when you consider that they started production in the '70s. The last model which came out in 1987, the 'Turbo 2' which had an intercooler gave 120 bhp and had a top speed of over 100 mph

The only improvements in the XM are a heater and a handbrake that work - otherwise its rubbish in comparison, but its the nearest you can get.

Peter

 

[Lincsbodger]

I have been messing with cars since i was 12, because my dad was an engineer and did his own repairs ( a real engineer, ie he used to build prototype diesel engines and gas turbines from scratch).

As technology advances, the first effect is it become impossible for an amateur to fix a car, because you need specialised equipment to fix some things, and other things are sealed throw away. The other effect is that the skill level of garage mechanics is dropping, because they are slowly turning into fitters who change bits as instructed by the diagnostic computer

The last amateur fixable car IMHO was the Sierra. It was designed to be fixed on a driveway with a standard set of tools. There was nothing o na Sierra that was hard to replace, personally I got to the stage I could whip off the cylinder head, decoke, regrind, change valve stem seals, and drop it back on in under 90 minutes.

And the technology hasnt stopped. There has already been and won a £2M challenge to build a computer controlled nil-human-intervention vehicle that can traverse a 120 Km route, including through the mountains. All this is driven by the military need for driverless intelligent vehicles.

Within 10 years, vehicles will be entirely self driven, all you will do is bung in the postcode and press GO, and it will drive you there with no further intervention.

It does raise the interesting point of who is to blame if your computer controlled car has a crash? The owner? The maker? The software provider? What if you are drunk? Can you be drink driving if you are sitting alone in the back seat and the computer is in charge?

Interesting times ahead?

 

[Avocet]

Think it might be a bit more than 10 years! A new model takes a good 5 years from drawing board (CAD terminal!) to launch - sometimes longer. So that's only two model launches from now!

I agree that cars are getting too smart-ar5ed for their own good these days, but a lot of it is out of the manufacturers' control. People are forever telling me "oh I wish they'd just make something like the Sierra / Cortina / etc again, I don't want all this fancy computer-controlled stuff"! The problem is that those cars wouldn't stand a cat in hell's chance of meeting current emissions limits. Those are imposed (within the EC) by the European Commission. You just can't get carburettors to run that clean, so you're stuck with cats, lambda sensors and all the electronics to run them. On top of that, the public's voracious appetite for 5 EuroNCAP stars for crashworthiness and a few other gizmos here and there mean that manufacturers just pile on the complexity. It will be interesting to see how very simple cars like the Tata Nano will sell over here. I've a feeling they won't do very well. We all moan about fancy technology - but we keep buying it!

It's interesting to hear the praise of Citroen CXs on here. I'm a big fan of the older big Citroens, and had a couple of DSs as well as CXs. They certainly had their good points, but when they were in production, they used to have a lousy reputation for being "too complex"! I never much liked the steering on the CX if truth be told. They were excellent in a straight line, but only because they had quite a long wheelbase and were incredibly nose-heavy. I remember being humiliated in a CX GTI by a Mk III Cortina on a series of hairpin bends many years ago!

 

[Lincsbodger]

no really, it will be 10 years tops.

All the technology has been developed, its just a matter of time before they assemble the first one.

The rate of change of technology is increasing in an logarithmic curve, new science is being discovered at a faster and faster rate. Humans are on the verge of the next step in there evolution, no less.

Google 'Technological Singularity' to see where it will all go.

 

[wotan]

To me one of the major advances, was the single rail diesel engine, with it's electronically controlled injectors.
Possible increase in complexity, but far outweighed in efficiency.

Wotan

 

[Peter.N.]

I think the best cars were made in the mid '90s, take the XMs which I run for example, new enought to have the basic modern comforts, quiet, smooth, roomy and 50mpg + possible in the 2.1 manual because of the briliant 12 valve IDI engine, but with a mechanical fuel pump, it has ECUs on the suspension, ABS and heating, but nothing that can cause it to spontainiously break down. On top of that they are good for at least 300k which can't be said of many modern cars.

I think modern cars are rubbish - just my personal opinion you understand

Peter

 

[Avocet]

Well, I have to say I'm torn on this one. My own car is a 1990 car and is has lasted as long as it has (just coming up to the quarter million mile mark) because it's fix-able (by me)! On the other hand, I work in the car industry and I do like all the toys, safety, refinement and efficiency of my company car! As a diesel, it's pretty much on a par (refinement-wise) with my own (petrol) car! In fact, when you take the other factors like suspension and driveline refinement and lack of wind noise, the company diesel is actually MORE refined (and it has two less cylinders)! I agree with Wotan, the "common rail" diesel was a huge milestone. Or current diesels can now fire their injectors several times PER POWER STROKE so as to improve smoothness. The cars are much more powerful (and cleaner) too than equivalent models from the '90s. But all that has come at a high price in terms of complexity.

Interestingly, for as long as I've been driving, I can remember people saying that current cars weren't a patch on whatever was being driven about 10 years previously! What's more, it was for the same reasons! 30 years ago, it was a lament over the disappearance of contact breaker points and carburettors. Good riddance to both as far as I'm concerned!

Lincsbodger, whilst I agree that the technology for a driverless car is nearly here, I still disagree that we'll be seeing them our our roads in 10 years. The technology for driverless trains and planes has been around for a while now and we still haven't got rid of the driver! Cars are a MUCH more complex situation. Car manufacturers only exist (like any manufacturer) to sell whatever it is that they think the public will buy. Hands up who would be first in the queue for a driverless car?!

 

[Lincsbodger]

To me one of the major advances, was the single rail diesel engine
Wotan

My dad was an engineer (in the proper meaning of the word, he used to design and hand build prototype engines), he would wince at you calling it a diesel engine. They are correctly called Oil Engines

 

[Peter.N.]

"Fixable by me" is really the crux of the matter, I do all my own repairs and have done since I had my first car in the '50s. The cost of repairing modern cars is out of all proportion the '90s ones referred to, in fact I dont know how many people can afford to pay for repairs. The XM was regarded as far to complex for the average mechanic when they came out but now, although complicated, it is repairable on a DIY basis. There is no doubt about the difference in durability, most of the '90s diesels were good for 200,000 miles+ with very little in maintenance costs, I know of a number of people who have spent thousands on common rail cars with much less mileage, in fact many are being scrapped at less than 100k because of the cost of repairs.

I don't believe that the old cars are necessaraly better, I drove a Morris Minor the other day but many of the '90s cars were by far the most durable ever made

Peter

 

[Burnerman]

Things aren't all lost for the DIY mechanic though...for example I bought a scanner for just over £100 which diagnoses engine faults and allows me to turn management lights back off etc...this will do any petrol car after 2001 and any diesel from 2004. Brilliant value!
Many people forget what amazing pieces of engineering cars are - so good in fact that opening the bonnet seems to be unheard of. I was working on a Seat TDi the other day - oil change was due every 10k, it came to me with 24k since the last change the wifey concerned paid £17000 for it and the door pockets were stuffed with banana skins, and remains of pie an'chips under the passenger seat. Serves them right if the engine does go pop.
I've lost count how many front springs I've fitted over the last 12 months!
John

 

[Peter.N.]

Hydropnumatic Citroens don't have any

 

[Lincsbodger]

many are being scrapped at less than 100k because of the cost of repairs.

Classic case: The Mondeo. Would easily do 250k miles just like the Sierra used to, but the clutch on a mondeo packs in at about 120k miles, to replace it is a complete engine and gearbox out job, almost impossible for a home mechanic to do without a big garage and an engine hoist, in a garage its a £600 job, at that point the car is only worth £500 so you scrap it. Mondeos last one clutch and thats it. Madness.