The "Can I" question

[ericmark]

We see on here again and again "Can I" do this. And of course since we don't know the ability of the guy or availability of test equipment normally a simple answer is not possible.

Should we try to explain or should we just say likely no you can't?

With most DIY people they will not have access to test equipment so under the BS7671:2008 rules they can not do the whole job themselves. So likely most "Can I" questions could be answered "Likely no" but do we look at BS7671:2008 or just Part P?

Is Part P making electrics more dangerous when if asked "Can I" we answer yes as Part P permits it even though likely under BS7671:2008 they would be unable to comply?

If we say No will the advise be ignored and would it be better to say yes if you and explain what is required? If so should we have standard answers for the repeat questions?

Should we just reply with assuming you have the skill, knowledge and equipment. Or should we assume since they have asked the question they don't have the skill, knowledge and equipment?

Thoughts please.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It depends.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[bernardgreen]

There have been recent posts on hear from so called electricians who can barely write. I would imagine their reading skills are the same level, how can they possibly understand the regs?

Best put that question to the "scheme" officials who issued the paper qualifications with pre-printed signatures to the "electricians" they produce.

 

[Diyisfun]

I would take 'can I' as 'is it possible'.

 

[Grizzly]

There have been recent posts on hear from so called electricians who can barely write.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[mbga9pgf]

With most DIY people they will not have access to test equipment

http://nihs.co.uk/?gclid=CKTVqdjJsqYCFYYa6wodM0zQMQ

http://www.aughton.co.uk/megger-mft1553-multifunction-tester-with-bluetooth/prod_43.html

Question is, would all DIYers know the importance of testing?

IMO, as long as the individual is keen to do a conciencious job and carry out testing, whats the issue? All part P requires is (as you all know)

“Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.”

I simply cannot see someone getting done for not notifying.In fact in the 7 years since the regs came in, I yet await to see someone done for not notifying.

If you correctly design, install test and service a DIY installation to current Building standards, I dont see how you can disagree with someone doing work.

 

[flameport]

IMO, as long as the individual is keen to do a conciencious job and carry out testing, whats the issue

That does not describe the majority of DIY work.
Most DIY persons will not do any testing at all. Even though equipment can be hired for a reasonable price, people won't bother because they don't have to.
Just as they won't buy or borrow a copy of BS7671 or the OSG.

Many have no idea why certain things are done, and even worse, don't want to know either. With people like that, hiring test equipment is useless, since even if they did hire it, they wouldn't know how to use it properly or what the results of the tests actually mean.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Can I comment on this thread?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Many have no idea why certain things are done, and even worse, don't want to know either.

And/or don't even realise that they don't know.

mbga9pgf - we get people here whose grasp of electrics is so feeble that they really do think a light switch has live & neutral running to it.

And how about this person - do you think that she'd be keen to do a conscientious job?

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=170197

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=204804



[EDIT]Spleling misteak corretced[/EDIT]

 

[Steve]

I would take 'can I' as 'is it possible'.

OK, "can i change my fusebox"?

I know its possible! People do it al the time.

"can I" implies "I know its possible but might I be able to do it myself, having considered the law and regulations applicable to this activity?"

 

[ericmark]

I would take 'can I' as 'is it possible'.

OK, "can i change my fusebox"?

I know its possible! People do it al the time.

"can I" implies "I know its possible but might I be able to do it myself, having considered the law and regulations applicable to this activity?"

I have considered the same however on pointing out the hurdles that need jumping having considered the law and regulations then are accused of being Part P police.

Can I comment on this thread?

Full marks very good.

I would take 'can I' as 'is it possible'.

Likely that is what they mean but does it mean 'is it possible' within regulations or physically?

Most of the time "Can I" means "I'm going to"

In a world were most tradesmen are inadequately trained, a conscientious diyer can be a lot safer.

There have been recent posts on hear from so called electricians who can barely write. I would imagine their reading skills are the same level, how can they possibly understand the regs?

Well sorry to say you are right. I would like to see electricians issued with a licence like a driving licence and gain points for any wrong doings.

However for many years we have had a problem with reading and understanding the book and rummer control. I was told as an apprentice no socket within think it was 3 feet of a sink and I for years thought it was in the regulations. However it has not been in since 15th edition. And where I served my apprenticeship I did not have access to the book. If you asked you were greeted with "Why do you want to see that" and labelled as a trouble maker.

We have many problems and these are compounded because we as electricians don't need to pass a single exam. OK if self employed you may have to in order to become a member of a scheme. But cards in there is no requirement. So one does something wrong and you just move to new employer. The more one moves the more experienced employers think you are. And they are not allowed to say anything bad about you.

But although there are some bad eggs I would think the chances of bad workmanship from tradesmen must be far less than from Joe public and to install without testing must be a no no.

Yes I know years ago we all did it (install without testing) but today I expect at least 98% of professional domestic work is tested and because we test most of the time we instinctively know when something is likely to fail.

The MCB/RBCO has changed things as before with the fuse if the prospective short circuit current was 140A instead of 160A it just took a little longer to blow. But with the duel operation on the MCB drop under the point where the magnetic part of the trip works and suddenly we drop from 0.1 seconds to minutes to trip.

 

[echoes]

Often the 'can I' questions involve a clarification from the regulations which demonstrate that the poster has thought enough about the problem to identify a gap in his or her knowledge which he wants to fill, and genuinely wants to learn something.

In other cases, the poster clearly has no idea (e.g. the neutrals to the light switch) and is made aware of such.

I think the 'if sir has to ask, then sir can't be competent' is often the wrong approach - I see it lots on the plumbing forum as soon the 'gas' word is mentioned, especially when the answer is simple, but not obvious. I don't like to discourage people from asking valid questions. Of couse if the question, is "can I use some spare phone cable and some 'electrical tape' to connect my 10kW electric shower" then exceptions can be made!

I think the most appropriate response to those who have no idea is to direct them to some basic understanding instead of answering the question directly, and maybe point out politely (or not!) why they are misguided/deluded/ignorant. Some will go and read it, and the rest are beyond help anyway.

 

[bernardgreen]

I think the most appropriate response to those who have no idea is to direct them to some basic understanding instead of answering the question directly, and maybe point out politely (or not!) why they are misguided/deluded/ignorant. Some will go and read it, and the rest are beyond help anyway.

I totally agree with that.