The dreaded Part P. Replacing 'like for like' in kitchen?

[Albumen]

I'm doing the kitchen.

There were two 'old fashioned' fluorescent batten lights. I took them down and replaced them with temporary pendant lights while plastering, painting etc was being done. Did I do anything 'illegal' there?

I've got new T5 double fluorescents. Can I fix those and wire them up myself without incurring the wrath of the Part P police? No wiring has changed (at least not the lights) and that seems like 'like for like' to me. Or is it?

Thanks.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm doing the kitchen. There were two 'old fashioned' fluorescent batten lights. I took them down and replaced them with temporary pendant lights while plastering, painting etc was being done. Did I do anything 'illegal' there?

Nothing illegal that I'm aware of. It would only have been illegal if it had not been done competently and safely (as required by Part P).

I've got new T5 double fluorescents. Can I fix those and wire them up myself without incurring the wrath of the Part P police? No wiring has changed (at least not the lights) and that seems like 'like for like' to me. Or is it?

Despite the myths, there has never been a 'like for like' requirement. I presume that your mention of 'the Part P police' refers to 'notifiable work'. Replacing a light fitting with a light fitting (even a different type) has never been notifiable - so, provided you are competent to do the work safely (which is required by Part P) then you can do the work you mention, legally and without notification.

In fact, the rules in England (but not Wales) changed in April, such that one can now do most elecrical work in a kitchen (in fact, anything which does not involve a 'new circuit' or replacement of a consumer unit) without notification. However, as I said above, there is a legal requirement for all domestic electrical work to be undertaken in compliance with Part P - which essentially means that it must be done competently and safely.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Did I do anything 'illegal' there?

Providing they were fitted safely, no!

I've got new T5 double fluorescents. Can I fix those and wire them up myself without incurring the wrath of the Part P police? No wiring has changed (at least not the lights) and that seems like 'like for like' to me. Or is it?

All the electrical work you do in your home must comply to part p and other related building regulation, but the work you are doing does not require to be notified to building controls.
So to keep the ever keen eye of the "part p police" from your sight, just make sure your replacements are fitted safely.

 

[Albumen]

Thanks folks. Does the fact that it's in a kitchen not make a difference?

I was under the impression that electical work in kitchens and bathrooms was always notifiable.

I suppose that's the problem with this Part P stuff. Lots of us are 'under an impression' of one sort of another. And as a perfectly competent electrician says, it's not actually being policed anyway, so what's the point?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Thanks folks. Does the fact that it's in a kitchen not make a difference?

Certain aspects of the requirements for notifiable work has been amended in April 2013, but this would not effect the replacing of existing equipment, such as switches, sockets, light fittings etc... as that was and still is permitted without notifying.

I was under the impression that electical work in kitchens and bathrooms was always notifiable.

Some work is but not all. As above you can replace items.

I suppose that's the problem with this Part P stuff. Lots of us are 'under an impression' of one sort of another.

Some have no impression at all, as they are blissfully ignorant of it's existence.

And as a perfectly competent electrician says, it's not actually being policed anyway, so what's the point?

There is a point with regards to safety, but I agree with the sentiment!

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks folks. Does the fact that it's in a kitchen not make a difference? I was under the impression that electical work in kitchens and bathrooms was always notifiable.

That was the point I was making in the last paragraph of my previous post. Things changed (in England, but not Wales) on 6th April 2013. Prior to that, much work in a kitchen (but not replacing things, like a light) was notifiable. Now, the only things which are notifiable (in any room) are 'replacing a CU', 'installing a new circuit' or work within the prescribed 'zones' of a bathroom. Nothing else.

And as a perfectly competent electrician says, it's not actually being policed anyway, so what's the point?

A very common subject for discussion!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Albumen]

I quite like reading. I sometimes wonder if I should change career and be an electrician, as it seems it's less to do with electricity and more to do with staying up all night reading regulations.

Our previous electrician is semi retired and isn't Part P anymore. He was perfectly straight - he said 'I can't give you certificates or anything Mike' so I said not to do the work, as we want everything kosher, as it were. Thinking about it I'm not sure that the Beth Din has much to say about wiring.

I would have been absolutely confident of his work, he's done tons of work for us and was scrupulous about safe installations, to the extent that other tradesmen would complain about how hard he was to work with. I sometimes worked with him (to keep cost down) doing bits of chasing out and suchlike, and it was clear to me that he understood the letter, and more importantly, the intention, of electrical regulations. He once put forward the notion of a mentally challenged 6 foot 6 inch man trying to change a light bulb at the same time as having a shower as an example of potential risk. Whereas other people might know the regs but not have the imagination to see potential, if unusual, risk.

Our current electrician seems to have a similar attitude, and I'm happy with the cooker circuits etc. he's installed. He just seems to be very busy (he's been ill and is catching up on work I think) and I'd quite like to get these lights up. The wiring is in place and the ceilings are good solid plasterboard. Presumably it's better to find a joist if I can, but otherwise those butterfly fixings? Or cavity fixings?

Thanks.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Our previous electrician is semi retired and isn't Part P anymore.

Part P is building regulation, it is not something you are or are not.
Your electrician is no longer a member of a domestic installers scheme.

He was perfectly straight - he said 'I can't give you certificates or anything Mike'

He can, you do not need to be registered to issue certs. The issue would be that he can no longer notify notifiable work via a scheme, this would now mean notification to building controls prior to work starting and the addition fee they charge.

The wiring is in place and the ceilings are good solid plasterboard. Presumably it's better to find a joist if I can, but otherwise those butterfly fixings? Or cavity fixings?

You need a secure fixing, so joist, noggin, batten or suitable plasterboard plugs.

 

[Albumen]

Thanks. Maybe he or I misunderstood. Either way he wasn't willing to issue completion certificates for the new circuits so we booked somebody else.

 

[JohnW2]

He was perfectly straight - he said 'I can't give you certificates or anything Mike'

He can, you do not need to be registered to issue certs.

Most certificates, yes, but I presume the OP's point was that, if he is not a member of a self-certification scheme, he cannot issue a Building Regulations Compliance Certificate.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks. Maybe he or I misunderstood. Either way he wasn't willing to issue completion certificates for the new circuits so we booked somebody else.

He wasn't allowed to - as I've just written, 'completion certificates' (which are called 'Compliance Certificates' when issued by an electrician, rather than LABC) are the one type of certificate that can only be issued by someone who is a 'registered' member of a 'self-certification scheme'.

Kind REgards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thinking about it I'm not sure that the Beth Din has much to say about wiring.

Mustn't be used on the Sabbath, I believe?

The wiring is in place and the ceilings are good solid plasterboard. Presumably it's better to find a joist if I can, but otherwise those butterfly fixings? Or cavity fixings?

I'd recommend joist - which way to they run in relation to the lights?

 

[Albumen]

Actually, there might be observant Jews who don't turn the lights on on the Sabbath. I know some who won't answer the telephone.

Joists run at 90 degrees to the lights, so depending where the mounting holes are I'll have to find 2. Should be possible.

Thanks.

 

[plugwash]

Now, the only things which are notifiable (in any room) are 'replacing a CU', 'installing a new circuit' or work within the prescribed 'zones' of a bathroom.

It would seem work in a room containing a swimming pool or sauna heater is also notifiable.

 

[JohnW2]

Actually, there might be observant Jews who don't turn the lights on on the Sabbath. I know some who won't answer the telephone.

I once had a secretary who was a very observant Jew (hence I had no secretary on Friday afternoons in Winter!) who would not touch any electrical switch, answer phones, or do much else on the Sabbath. However, her house was teeming with time switches which turned lights etc. on an off for her at the appropriate times, and even turned on the oven to cook her meal. It always seemed like 'cheating' to me, but she clearly had received 'approval' for the practice!

Kind Regards, John