The Ideal Boiler that isn't...

[kiera]

Spent ages typing my problem into another forum, got an answer apparently, but now it won't let me in-argh... Anyway-Ideal ClassicFF330, always fragile, barely 5 years old. A few weeks ago it started lighting ok when you first turned it on, but after 10 minutes or so the burner would go out, the fan stays on and it attempts to relight with little clicks. It will come back on eventually, but the radiators never get more than tepid at the top, and then it goes out and starts all over again. My plumber is lovely but mystified. The Ideal technical "Helpline" has been rather snotty with him and has told him that it was "definately" (in the following order) the air pressure switch, the ignition electrode, the PCB (£100 and I think replacing that has made it slightly worse!), and their latest wheeze is to replace the gas valve they said that definately wasn't the problem before!!A tiny solenoid MAY be overheating. I don't think they have a clue what is wrong with it, my boiler barely has an original part left, and I'll be bankrupt when the bill arrives... Help, it's still cold up here!!

 

[waterworks]

Has your plumber checked the rest of your system?.

Sounds like you have a circulation problem ie pump not running, air in system etc.

 

[ChrisR]

The ideal "HELP" line can be the most useless, rude, arrogant and thick there is. Many of their boilers are among the worst in the country. They're a major liability to the company. There's one guy there called Dave Kemp. who's good. There's one woman and one other guy who are disgraceful. NO other manufacturer's people need to be like it.

Right, that's got that off my chest!

You're saying that the boiler sits there ticking for a long time without lighting? How long?
Once it has lit, how long before it goes off?

Oh, and which was the other forum?

The gas valve solenoids on that model DO stick when they get hot. It's possible, but may be difficult, to get the solenoid alone, so you'd usually have to have a new gas valve.
You'd only notice when it tried to open, ie it would stay open once open, until the boiler got hot and it shut.

If the boiler is "short-cycling" then you do have anoter problem, probably circulation as WW says.

 

[kiera]

Ooh, lovely- replies I can actually read!! The other forum that is almost as frustrating as the boiler is Ask the plumber, by the way.
Thanks for the suggestions, and to answer the points, the plumber did go round everything before he decided on the boiler rather than the system. The pump looks like he bled it because there's a stain on the floor that wasn't there before, and I've just tried releasing the screw slightly and water came straight out. It does vibrate slightly when the burner comes on- I don't know if that means anything? I did wonder myself if it was sludge because the last time it was serviced I got him to put inhibitor in as the radiators were cold at the bottom, and the bathroom radiator has needed bleeding regularly since the house was built. He says it isn't that because the heat exchanger never gets hot.
The length of time it tries to relight for varies but can be up to 15-20 minutes. Gas valve just arrived in the post- another £90... Here goes nothing!

 

[ChrisR]

Ouch. (Solenoids are much cheaper and easier to fit, hey ho.)
Sounds like GV then, but if the rads are cold at the bottom it's either because the pump is blocked/slow or the rads are blocked.
Inhibitor won't really make any difference unless you clean the system first.
The "air" accumulating is probably hydrogen, a corrosion product, which supports the sludge(rust) likelihood.

 

[kiera]

Ideal don't sell the solenoids separately-I mean, why would they want to make it easy and cheap for their unfortunate customers to replace stuff? I will feel such an idiot if it is the whole sludge thing because my next door neighbour's plumber mate said the same thing when given a detailed description, but I defended my plumber's idea that it wasn't because he'd had the boiler to bits. And I didn't want to fork out an unspecified amount for the other guy's powerflush when it sounded like an electrical fault with the boiler. Is there any way of looking into the sludge theory myself before I ring the plumber to install the gas valve? I did dig out a magnet after reading something about iron deposits on another website and went around applying it to copper pipes it found nothing to stick to in...

 

[gas4you]

I would agree with the gas valve option. Pain in the butt to change on these though.

Would also agree that Ideal tech are the worst in the industry, like Ideal are generally at present

 

[Agile]

Has your plumber ever cleaned the fan and the venturi?

It sounds to me as if they just need cleaning! The pressure presented to the APS should be measured and be above the operating pressure shown on the rating of the APS.

The rads heating unevenly is probably a seperate problem as a result of a flow or pump problem. That might well need power flushing.

Your "plumber" does not sound well set if if he cannot do power flushing.

I assume that as he replaced the APS he is CORGI registered because he replaced the APS. If not then he is not qualified to check the fan as I suggested above.

Tony

 

[kiera]

The fan is nearly brand new-replaced on the insurance in December after it kept seizing up. And I'm afraid I don't know what a venturi is.
My plumber is Corgi registered and can do power flushing, but genuinely thinks that isn't the problem. The heating has always taken a good 20min plus to warm up the whole of the radiators from cold, so given that the longest the burner stays on for these days is 10-15 minutes, I don't suppose the radiators would normally warm up in that time anyway. If it stays on for the full 15 when first switched on, the warmth does get quite a way down them, but them when the burner goes off they cool down quicker than normal and after it's first cycle it doesn't stay on long enough to warm them up much again. The boiler malfunctioning seemed to start remarkably quickly for a sludge problem- would that not have been a gradual thing?
Thank you all for the helpful answers- a friend went on ask the plumber for me and e-mailed me the one answer I had up till yesterday. It was basically sack your plumber because nobody who needs to ring technical helplines is any good... Not terribly useful.

 

[kiera]

Ooh- sudden late thought! The first thing that I noticed going wrong with the boiler was that it didn't warm the hot water up. Does this kill the sludge theory entirely? Wouldn't that only account for the tepid radiators?
Gas valve probably being fitted tomorrow-is there a patron saint of Hopeless Boilers I can sacrifice something to...?

 

[Agile]

I cannot remember if the venturi is in the fan or seperate on your model. If its seperate then it should be checked. Either way the pressure from the venturi should be checked.

Regardless, I would still be monitoring the APS to see if its that causing the boiler to go off.

It might be a boiler overheat problem quite possibly caused by a poor water flow rate as it certainly sounds as if the circulation round your system is poor. I would be looking at the pump and for blockages.

The flow rate can be calculated by measuring the temperature diferential across the boiler pipes. It should ideally be about 11 °C. If its a lot higher then the water flow is probably too low.

I rather agree that anyone who needs a technical help line to repair common faults will not be very good. There are a few times when you need information which is not given in the boiler instructions or help in identifying part variants but I hardly ever contact any helpline.

Tony

 

[kiera]

Could a brand new air pressure switch still be the problem?
I think I rather pushed him into the whole helpline thing (before I knew they were so rubbish) because the obvious things hadn't worked, and the horrifying suggestion of a new boiler came up. I'll look into the venturi bit too. I wouldn't be surprised if it was something to do with the insurance fan repair because I wasn't that impressed with the bloke that did it. Although it was about 4 months afterwards that the current problems started.

 

[gas4you]

Going back to the op, if the boiler has the fan going and you can hear clicking it proves that the aps has proved and the pcb has told the boiler to start the ignition sequence.

Your Corgi should have checked that the pcb is delivering the voltage to the gas valve terminals during this and if it is then it is the gas valve.

 

[AlanE]

Helen the suggestion on 'the other' forum was simply to engage the services of a competent boiler engineer rather than a 'poor plumber' who was heading you for bankruptsy.

You have said here, and there, that he has changed virtually all the parts on your boiler possible. You also stated you were buying the spare parts required - why.

The advise given there is still valid some boilers need the attention of an expert. With a troublesom boiler such as you appear to have is a good case in question.

Faulty fans have been mentioned here. Are you now going to go out and pay aroung £150 to see?

Do yourself a favour take the advise and save your self the expence of a 'parts changer'!!

 

[gas4you]

At the end of the day you should only be charged and pay for the fix and part that actually cures it.

We all mis-diagnose sometimes, thats called being human, but the customer should not have to pay for our error.