Thoughts on Removing Electric Fire with 2 fuse points

[Cinobite]

I'd like to remove my fireplace. It seems fairly straight forward. But there's 2 fuse points.

So it goes fireplace hardwired into fuse box one (13A). This is on the left, has black fireplace cable in, grey cable out to right. As you'd expect. (at least I would).

But then there's a second fuse box on the right with a switch (13A). This has 3 sets, what appears to be 2 in, 1 out (to the other box).

My plan is, remove the fireplace, remove the left box and plaster over. Take out the cable between the two boxes. I'd like to remove that right hand box too, but it's not essential.

I'm assuming that the left box is an extension of the right box which is A: a spur from somewhere, B: on it's own cable. But I'm wondering really, why is there 2 sets of cables coming into that right hand box?

For your info, there is a double socket and aerial point 7ft to the left at the other end of the room. There are no sockets to the right. But a double on the opposite side of the wall in the corner (if you turn around). If I cut the power at the consumer unit to "sockets", it disconnects power to the fireplace switched fuse box.

Ultimately, I want to put in some LED downlights on this wall and take the power from the far left double sockets (it's next to a soil stack I can run them through). Do you think the chances are the fireplace spur comes from the left sockets to the right fuse box then doubles back on itself to the left fusebox?

 

[Adam_151]

The right hand switched fused connection unit appears to be located directly on the ring [rather then a spur] hence the two cables in and provides fusing down and functional switching of the fire. The unswitched fused connection unit behind the fire is just used as a flex outlet and did not need to be fused.

Your best bet would be to replace the switched fused connection unit on the right with a single socket outlet. You could either disconnect the cable going to the point on the left, cutting it off short at both ends, and then plaster over that point.... or leave it connected and change that to a single socket as well

 

[Cinobite]

Ah ok, so, forgive the dumb question, but a ring circuit is basically a loop from and back to the consumer unit right, with sockets or switches wired in serial right? So surely I'd be correct in saying that if one socket broke, everything on the ring would fail?

In other news;

So I guess I could remove and plaster the left box. Then I could, if I wanted, join (choc block and tape) the 2 sets of wires inside the right switched box and remove the box and plaster over that - that would be absolutely fine right. Although chances are I'd put a single socket in as you suggest.

Secondy, as I say, I'll be adding downlights at some point. I can just take the power from the double socket on the extreme left. But as they would be running downlights (240v LED) I'd need to run it through a (13A) fuse box like the fire?
I'm planning to double switch a switch by the backdoor (near the double sockets), while it's highy unlikely, I "could", use a switched fuse box at the power source only thus eliminating the need for switch up by the door (impractical I know, but in theory that would be fine right?)

In my head this is Perfectly fine (pic)

Oh one final thing, the back boxes here are metal, so far all the ones I've dealt with are plastic. Would this be because it's an exterior wall so needs the ruggedess to work with the brick? And I couldn't see an earth to the back box, is this only a requirement if the faceplate is metal too?

Just to clarify, this is the plan as it's the living room and the lights will be boxed in. There is no access to the ceilling cavity as the rooms above are tiled/polished board or bathrooms

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ah ok, so, forgive the dumb question, but a ring circuit is basically a loop from and back to the consumer unit right, with sockets or switches wired in serial right?

No, in parallel.

So surely I'd be correct in saying that if one socket broke, everything on the ring would fail?

No, because it's a loop with both ends connected to the supply.

So I guess I could remove and plaster the left box. Then I could, if I wanted, join (choc block and tape) the 2 sets of wires inside the right switched box and remove the box and plaster over that - that would be absolutely fine right.

No, it would not be fine, because tape is not needed, and if anything is needed around a choc-block, tape won't do.

No, it would not be fine because you aren't allowed to have screwed joints inaccessible.

No, it would not be fine because you aren't allowed to have cables buried in a wall like that without there being accessories to alert people to their presence.


We seem to be encountering an awful lot of "Nos" here. I really really suggest that you put any plans for more fiddling with your electrics on hold until you've learned more about how they work.

• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uk+house+wiring+(basics+OR+101)
  
• http://kevinboone.net/electricity.html
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
• [wiki]Electrics%3Abooks[/wiki]
  
• [wiki]Electrics%3Aindex[/wiki]

Asking questions here can be a useful part of a learning process, but they are not a substitute for proper structured studying. The key term there is "learning process" - you cannot learn all the things you need to know just by asking questions here. It isn't structured enough - it won't provide you with a way to progress where each step builds on what you learned before.

You can't learn by asking whatever random questions happen to occur to you. You've already shown that you have some dodgy misconceptions - what if you get something wrong because you have no idea your knowledge is wrong? What if you miss something because you simply have no idea it even exists, and just don't realise you don't know it?

Secondy, as I say, I'll be adding downlights at some point. I can just take the power from the double socket on the extreme left. But as they would be running downlights (240v LED) I'd need to run it through a (13A) fuse box like the fire?
I'm planning to double switch a switch by the backdoor (near the double sockets), while it's highy unlikely, I "could", use a switched fuse box at the power source only thus eliminating the need for switch up by the door (impractical I know, but in theory that would be fine right?)

They are lights.

Why not put them on the lighting circuit?

In my head this is Perfectly fine (pic)

No, 13A is too big.

Oh one final thing, the back boxes here are metal, so far all the ones I've dealt with are plastic. Would this be because it's an exterior wall so needs the ruggedess to work with the brick?

No, it's because plastic boxes are only suitable for use in hollow stud & plasterboard walls.

And I couldn't see an earth to the back box, is this only a requirement if the faceplate is metal too?

No, it's a requirement full stop, and if your lighting circuit has no earth then you have got far more important things to worry about than boxing in downlights and you must not have any metal switches or any Class I lights until it's been rewired.

 

[Cinobite]

Thank you for all the links, I am certainly reading and learning as I go and will continue to do so. I was looking at an evening course to take, however all I could find were courses for £2,000 just to read through the regulations.
After reading numerous things, I must say that some of your comments don't align with things I have read, but thank you anyway.

I do genuinely appreciate the feedback, I'm trying to learn but not finding things extremely forthcoming. Of course I'm not looking to rewire a house, I'd just like to be able to change a few sockets, light fixings etc. I'm surprised there's no accessible home owners course available for things like this and plumbing etc

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thank you for all the links, I am certainly reading and learning as I go and will continue to do so. I was looking at an evening course to take, however all I could find were courses for £2,000 just to read through the regulations.

You might find a college offering this: http://eal.org.uk/record/2545-electrical-installation-qcf

After reading numerous things, I must say that some of your comments don't align with things I have read, but thank you anyway.

Which, OOI? Could be what you read is wrong, could be I was unclear.

I'm surprised there's no accessible home owners course available for things like this and plumbing etc

The problem is that as soon as anybody offers formal training, they are going to have to get into the whole Part P/BS 7671/testing area.

 

[Cinobite]

The main part was on earthing, I would and have run a fly lead to a metal back box regardless, but what I have read is that it is unnecessary in most cases these days with RCD circuits and double insulated items

Thanks for the link, I'll look into it further as it's really something I would like to learn properly, at least at a home owners level

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The main part was on earthing, I would and have run a fly lead to a metal back box regardless,

Pointless if the circuit has no earth.

but what I have read is that it is unnecessary in most cases these days with RCD circuits and double insulated items

That is very wrong, and contrary to the regulations.

Do not read any more from wherever you read that.

And if your circuit has no earth that indicates an installation probably well past its best-by - you really should get it checked over.

 

[Cinobite]

Ah perhaps we're getting crossed wires, no pun intended, I'm guessing you are referring to the whole system, that it has an earth path, whereas I'm referring and what I'm reading, is referring to end points and items that are double insulated etc which don't have a requirement to be earthed themselves. You wouldn't, for example, earth a plastic back box or some lights that are double insulated

 

[EFLImpudence]

The main part was on earthing, I would and have run a fly lead to a metal back box regardless,

Yes, you should and/or the switch if metal.

but what I have read is that it is unnecessary in most cases these days

No.
Exposed metal parts should be earthed - so that the fuse/circuit breaker will disconnect the supply - if it becomes live.
Earthing is a necessary evil; not a magic solution.

with RCD circuits

RCDs are to disconnect the supply if some current were to pass through you.
It is better to not have a live part but disconnected before you get there.

and double insulated items

They cannot become live even if they have metal parts.
They must not be earthed - so preventing them becoming live because of a fault elsewhere.

 

[EFLImpudence]

You wouldn't, for example, earth a plastic back box

You cannot earth plastic. It does not conduct electricity.

or some lights that are double insulated

as above.

 

[PBC_1966]

I'm surprised there's no accessible home owners course available for things like this and plumbing etc

The problem is that as soon as anybody offers formal training, they are going to have to get into the whole Part P/BS 7671/testing area.

Are there no longer any local colleges in Britain offering evening courses for basic home maintenance subjects without getting to the level of professional qualifications?

 

[Cinobite]

You cannot earth plastic. It does not conduct electricity.

That's my point, there are some items that you wouldn't run an earth to, so to say "You must always earth backboxes" would be incorrect.

With regard to the previous comment, there are various opinions on using flyleads to the back box with some people opting, correct or not, for the screw's to carry the earth or metal sheilding on the back of the faceplate

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, you must earth the faceplate if it is metal, but it is not actually a requirement to also earth the back box, relying on the screws..

However, you will see that if you foolishly remove the faceplate without switching off, the live wire could come out and touch the back box making it live - but, of course, you wouldn't.

 

[Cinobite]

Absolutely, which is why I have always ran a flylead to the box - better safe than sorry right!