Upgrading doors to fire resistant

[dextrous]

We have recently been bequethed our parents house and wish to rent it out as bedsits (some self contained). Apart from the usual fire alarms etc (which is a subject for a different thread), it has come to our attention that the doors should be fire rated.

The house itself is late Victorian, and the doors are traditional panel.

Is there a way of overpanelling the doors instead of having to replace them, and also what can we do with regard to the intumescent strips that are supposed to line the frames. Clearly, we would like to keep the original doors and frames if possible since, apart from anything else, the cost of replacing these (approx 20 or so) doors with frames and making good decoration (the house has been recently been redecorated throughout after a house fire), quite apart from wanting to keep the character of the building intact, is quite daunting.

Any advice welcome.

 

[^woody^]

Its not the door, but the doorset which counts (ie door, frame and ironmongery)

I don't think that you will get a visually or financially acceptable FR door by over-cladding or otherwise, and even so you may have to prove the FR of the doorset.

Intumescent strips can go in the door edges, not just the frame

Frames can be fitted with deeper stops

So really the main cost may just be the doors.

This work should not affect the decorations

 

[goodwood]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but you will have to buy certificated firedoors. That means doors that have received a certificate by virtue of having been through an approved test-house. Once upon a time it was possible to buy an 'authorisation' from TRADA to make doors to their specification (as a joinery company, we needed to make firedoors of traditional appearance on occasion - very, very expensive, but cheaper than not opening the hotel because the fire-officer and conservation officer wouldn't talk to each other). The law changed some years ago. Now, if you buy a fire door from a merchant, the moment you alter it, it loses its certification. Rather you than me. Be prepared to dig deep.

You can alter the existing linings to take intumescent strip, as long as it is fitted correctly and is approved by the fire officer. The depth of the stops is not significant. Years ago it was thought that deeper stops improved the fire-rating, but that's a fallacy. Preventing hot gases past the rebate is the only effective means of preventing a fire spreading. I'm sure that you can find the applicable Building Regulations on line if you take some time to research it.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Or what about an upgrade kit such as this: http://www.fireproofpaint.co.uk/Intumescent_Victorian_Door_Upgrade.html

 

[goodwood]

The intumsescent paper/paint solution LOOKS good, but in the end, it's down to what your fire inspector will accept. I used to make oak firedoors to a TRADA spec with 4mm Masterboard laminated between oak panels bedded in intumescent mastic, let alone bits of paper. Unless I could prove certification by submitting samples for fire testing, they became 'not recognised'.

But... try it and see. Before you do any work or spend any money, gather the options and then talk to the Fire Officer. He is the man with the say-so.

 

[dextrous]

The intumsescent paper/paint solution LOOKS good, but in the end, it's down to what your fire inspector will accept. I used to make oak firedoors to a TRADA spec with 4mm Masterboard laminated between oak panels bedded in intumescent mastic, let alone bits of paper. Unless I could prove certification by submitting samples for fire testing, they became 'not recognised'.

But... try it and see. Before you do any work or spend any money, gather the options and then talk to the Fire Officer. He is the man with the say-so.

Will do. Here's hoping!!

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

The intumsescent paper/paint solution LOOKS good, but in the end, it's down to what your fire inspector will accept. I used to make oak firedoors to a TRADA spec with 4mm Masterboard laminated between oak panels bedded in intumescent mastic, let alone bits of paper. Unless I could prove certification by submitting samples for fire testing, they became 'not recognised'.

But... try it and see. Before you do any work or spend any money, gather the options and then talk to the Fire Officer. He is the man with the say-so.

This system was recommended to me...............wait for it..............by a building control inspector!

 

[dextrous]

The intumsescent paper/paint solution LOOKS good, but in the end, it's down to what your fire inspector will accept. I used to make oak firedoors to a TRADA spec with 4mm Masterboard laminated between oak panels bedded in intumescent mastic, let alone bits of paper. Unless I could prove certification by submitting samples for fire testing, they became 'not recognised'.

But... try it and see. Before you do any work or spend any money, gather the options and then talk to the Fire Officer. He is the man with the say-so.

This system was recommended to me...............wait for it..............by a building control inspector!

I'm in a quandary as to whether to love you (on this thread), or despise you (on another related thread!)

 

[^woody^]

What about the door stile joints when heated, the beading holding the panels in, contraction of the panels, knots, quality and type of timber etc etc?

I can't see how fitting a layer of intumescent paper can make the doorset automatically achieve a given fire rating to the satisfaction of the LA. If the doorset fails in a fire, there is a massive liability on the LA for approving and unproven doorset

In addition, the safety officer at the council who deals with HMO's will need to approve the doorsets as part of his safety inspection - and this is different to any BCO inspection

 

[dextrous]

In simple terms then, if we get specifications from the Fire Safety Officer and act upon it, this should suffice?

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

What about the door stile joints when heated, the beading holding the panels in, contraction of the panels, knots, quality and type of timber etc etc?

I can't see how fitting a layer of intumescent paper can make the doorset automatically achieve a given fire rating to the satisfaction of the LA. If the doorset fails in a fire, there is a massive liability on the LA for approving and unproven doorset

In addition, the safety officer at the council who deals with HMO's will need to approve the doorsets as part of his safety inspection - and this is different to any BCO inspection

Like I say, twas recomended to me by a building control officer who had seen it used and approved it! In my experience in reality the fire brigade fire officer won't get involved on many small jobs like this anyway. I expect the suitability for upgrade of each door is taken into consideration. In any case Building Regs Regularisation is not likely to be applied for though as there would be a requirement to meet all of the regs that applied at the time of conversion, thermal, sound, rewiring etc etc not just fire. You can't get regularisation on just the bits that suit you! If it was mine I'd change the doors, tis a cost to be absorbed by the rent you're getting. Besides if the dextrous has anyone from the council round he might be applying for a change of use!

 

[^woody^]

In my experience in reality the fire brigade fire officer won't get involved on many small jobs like this anyway.

No he may not, but the officer at the council who deals with HMO's will definitely do an inspection as part of the regular inspection programme which the council has to do. And he will be looking for things over and above the basic building control standards

 

[gregers]

i fitted this type of system to a house that was turned into a h.m.o a few years ago and it got passed by the fire officer,and this was on old victorian doors,so best thing you could do is phone up and ask the questions and get it written in stone,so they cant back out of it.

 

[goodwood]

Let's be clear about this: Anyone with no real responsibility for the final outcome can recommend a solution. In reality, it's about protecting yourself if things go wrong. In this litigious society, if somebody dies, it won't help you to point at the Building Control officer and say 'He said it would be OK'. Get it in writing from the Fire Officer, and sleep sound at night.

 

[dextrous]

For whom does the Fire Officer work? We have contacted the fire service, who advise us that they don't get involved in multiple occupancies. Is the Fire Officer a subsidiary of the BCO? Without having anyone who is fully cogniscent of the regs, it is difficult to know who will be able to give written advice which we can act upon, and point the finger at should anything in the design go, er, t i t s-up.