What zone is the outside of a shower tray?

[alanalan20]

We're about to replace a bath with a shower tray, 1700 x 800 (so a touch wider than a normal bath).

We're looking to get the shower tray raised slightly so we can install LED lights in the shower riser kit. We're looking at lights like these....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SET-OF-10...262?pt=UK_Garden_Lighting&hash=item4adf018b46

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Saxby-...ighting_Lamps_Lighting_SM&hash=item4d255f4892

Can you tell me what zone the outside of the shower tray will be?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Check out the helpful WIKI
//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:bathroom_zones

Having looked at the diagram, what zone do you think it is?.

 

[alanalan20]

Thanks, so it's Zone 1

I've not see this picture before, well I've seen the zone picture but not one as clear as this, thanks.

What does it mean by "the use of a tool"?

 

[JohnW2]

What does it mean by "the use of a tool"?

Really just what it says. If one can remove the side panels below a shower tray (or bath) just by using one's hands, then the space below the tray (or bath) is in Zone 1. If one has to use, say, a screwdriver (or any other tool) to remove the panels, then it's not.

Since the lights you're thinking of are 12V ones, they might well be acceptable in Zone 1 so long as the 230V part of it (i.e. the plug/power supply) was outside of the zones. Where were you planning on plugging it in?

Kind Regards, John

 

[alanalan20]

What does it mean by "the use of a tool"?

Really just what it says. If one can remove the side panels below a shower tray (or bath) just by using one's hands, then the space below the tray (or bath) is in Zone 1. If one has to use, say, a screwdriver (or any other tool) to remove the panels, then it's not.

Since the lights you're thinking of are 12V ones, they might well be acceptable in Zone 1 so long as the 230V part of it (i.e. the plug/power supply) was outside of the zones. Where were you planning on plugging it in?

Kind Regards, John

Thanks for that, it's clear now.

As for plugging in my electrician has already rewired the bathroom and provided a "wire" which is currently under the shower tray, at the opposite side to the shower head. He advised that the lights, which we needed to select, would be connected to the mains wire, he then plans to place the transformer/plug into some waterproof junction box, probably "shoe box" size.

 

[bernardgreen]

Since the lights you're thinking of are 12V ones, they might well be acceptable in Zone 1 so long as the 230V part of it (i.e. the plug/power supply) was outside of the zones.

From the seller

Primarily designed for exterior decorative lighting installations (decking, patios, paving & brickwork) they may also be used in bathroom installations (zone 2) As well as kitchen plinths & stairways!

The 12 volt supply is a plug top PSU. What happens if it goes faulty and melts out and the output circuit comes into contact with the Live from the mains. ?

Personally I would never put my trust in that type of PSU to supply safe ELV power into a wet area,

 

[alanalan20]

Since the lights you're thinking of are 12V ones, they might well be acceptable in Zone 1 so long as the 230V part of it (i.e. the plug/power supply) was outside of the zones.

From the seller

Primarily designed for exterior decorative lighting installations (decking, patios, paving & brickwork) they may also be used in bathroom installations (zone 2) As well as kitchen plinths & stairways!

The 12 volt supply is a plug top PSU. What happens if it goes faulty and melts out and the output circuit comes into contact with the Live from the mains. ?

Personally I would never put my trust in that type of PSU to supply safe ELV power into a wet area,

Understand, would you consider this to be a "better fit" or is the issue the same?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-15mm...t=UK_Garden_Lighting&var=&hash=item460e9dcc21

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTQ5WDkxMg==/z/0tIAAMXQxzZRcIRG/$T2eC16dHJH8E9qSEW9VmBRcIRGBsMg~~60_12.JPG

Or this one?

https://www.simplelighting.co.uk/6-...ng-light-kit-includes-controller-transformer/

cheers

 

[JohnW2]

From the seller

Primarily designed for exterior decorative lighting installations (decking, patios, paving & brickwork) they may also be used in bathroom installations (zone 2) As well as kitchen plinths & stairways!

Yes, I read that, and that's why I said 'may'. What is written in an eBay listing does not necessarily correspond to what the manufacturer's instructions actually say.

The 12 volt supply is a plug top PSU. What happens if it goes faulty and melts out and the output circuit comes into contact with the Live from the mains. ? ... Personally I would never put my trust in that type of PSU to supply safe ELV power into a wet area,

That's obviously a potential risk with any such product - and one would need to be satisfied that it was a satisfactory SELV product. However, I think that's separate from the issue about zones. If I felt thalt the SELV-compliance was iffy, such that there was a risk of the lights getting mains potential on them, I wouldn't want them in zone 2 (as specified by seller), let alone zone 1!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

I wouldn't consider any of those.

If I was putting lights anywhere near a shower tray then they would be ELV ( 12 volt ) supplied by a split bobbin transformer with at least 3 mm and preferably 6 mm separation between the mains winding and the secondary windings. This transformer would be outside the room away from moisture and humidity..

The mains supply would be RCD protected and ( controversially ) I would earth one side of the ELV supply to ensure the RCD would be tripped in the event there was any tracking ( leakage ) from the 230 volt input to the ELV output.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Since the lights you're thinking of are 12V ones, they might well be acceptable in Zone 1 so long as the 230V part of it (i.e. the plug/power supply) was outside of the zones. Where were you planning on plugging it in?

From the seller

Primarily designed for exterior decorative lighting installations (decking, patios, paving & brickwork) they may also be used in bathroom installations (zone 2) As well as kitchen plinths & stairways!

Yes, I read that, and that's why I said 'may'. What is written in an eBay listing does not necessarily correspond to what the manufacturer's instructions actually say.

The 12 volt supply is a plug top PSU. What happens if it goes faulty and melts out and the output circuit comes into contact with the Live from the mains. ? ... Personally I would never put my trust in that type of PSU to supply safe ELV power into a wet area,

That's obviously a potential risk with any such product - and one would need to be satisfied that it was a satisfactory SELV product. However, I think that's separate from the issue about zones. If I felt thalt the SELV-compliance was iffy, such that there was a risk of the lights getting mains potential on them, I wouldn't want them in zone 2 (as specified by seller), let alone zone 1!

As the lights in question are IP44 and IPX4 240V luminaires are allowed in zone 1 (not subject to jets) is this reservation valid?
I realise that this is subject to the manufacturer stating they are suitable for zone 1 but, as said, they may not be conversant with the regulations.

Anyway, I am sure that the OP could find some which are so stated and some of a greater IP rating are easily available.

 

[JohnW2]

I wouldn't consider any of those. ... If I was putting lights anywhere near a shower tray then they would be ELV ( 12 volt ) supplied by a split bobbin transformer with at least 3 mm and preferably 6 mm separation between the mains winding and the secondary windings. This transformer would be outside the room away from moisture and humidity. The mains supply would be RCD protected and ( controversially ) I would earth one side of the ELV supply to ensure the RCD would be tripped in the event there was any tracking ( leakage ) from the 230 volt input to the ELV output.

I suppose that no-on can argue against that being close to the ultimate in caution/safety, but lesser degrees of 'caution' than that can certainly be compliant with the regs. Don't forget that, even if 230V did get onto the SELV (or in your case PELV) output, its very probable that the exposed metal parts of the lights are well insulated from the 'electrics' within the actual LED 'capsule'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

As the lights in question are IP44 and IPX4 240V luminaires are allowed in zone 1 (not subject to jets) is this reservation valid? I realise that this is subject to the manufacturer stating they are suitable for zone 1 but, as said, they may not be conversant with the regulations.

I'm not totally sure which of the reservations you are talking about, but I do think that bernard is probably being ultra-cautious - although I obviously would not be comfortable using what I regarded as 'iffy SELV' when SELV was appropriate!. I'm not even convinced that these lamps would be in zone 1, anyway. If the panels under the shower tray were flush with the tray and removable only with a tool, then anything behind the panel would be outside of zones, any an parts on the outside of the panel would be in zone 2, wouldn't they?

Anyway, I am sure that the OP could find some which are so stated and some of a greater IP rating are easily available.

Agreed.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

its very probable that the exposed metal parts of the lights are well insulated from the 'electrics' within the actual LED 'capsule'

I have seven 10 watt LED floodights. The case is connected to the negative of the supply. For the purpose they were bought for ( battery powered lighting ) they are ideal.

 

[JohnW2]

its very probable that the exposed metal parts of the lights are well insulated from the 'electrics' within the actual LED 'capsule'

I have seven 10 watt LED floodights. The case is connected to the negative of the supply. For the purpose they were bought for ( battery powered lighting ) they are ideal.

That's always a possibility. However, with an RCD and your proposed PELV arrangement, even such a product would probably not represent a significant risk, would it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

That would depend on the potential of the -12V with respect to earth. If battery powered, not likely to be a problem.