When is a repair to a house classed as a rebuild?

[Bobthebuilder58]

Hi Everybody my name is Bob and this is my first post on this site.
We recently bought an old vicarage with serious subsidence with the intention of fixing the problem, with either piling new foundations or underpinning etc. We bought the property because it is in a beautiful spot and it was at a price we could just about afford.

However after taking a lot of advice from the professionals, we very reluctantly decided to demolish the house and build a virtual replica of it on a piled foundation. Shortly after starting work clearing the site we were informed buy our local council that we would have to pay over £ 38,000 in the new CIL levy!!!!! if we build a new house on the site we had never heard of this new tax which is completely outrageous We cannot afford to pay this tax so we are faced with fixing the old property as originally intended.

My question is how much of the existing building can we knock down before the planners decide it is a new build, can we leave just one wall up,two walls etc
This whole experience as left us devastated any advice would be very welcome thank you. Bob.

 

[bhm1712]

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/planning/applications/howtoapply/whattosubmit/cil

If you read into this, i believe that if you repair the house in its current state, i dont think you would have to pay it. However, if you demolish and rebuild, then as you have found out already - you need to pay it.

Clarity would be required from a professional regarding what would happen if you were to take one wall out at a time and rebuild that on better foundations. Could that be classed as a development, or simply a repair?

CIL is not new - its been around since 2010 as far as i can tell

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Seriously, you demolished a whole house and rebuilt it? Without thinking you would need PP? Or have you not done any demo yet? Where are you with this?

 

[jabuzzard]

From that planning portal website

While any new build over this size will be subject to CIL, the gross floorspace of any existing buildings on the site that are going to be demolished may be deducted from the calculation of the CIL liability

If the replacement is of the same size as the original building then it looks like you should be exempt. I would imagine that the person at the council has "forgot" this.

 

[Bobthebuilder58]

Hi everybody! I don't think i made myself very clear. The original building with the subsidence is still standing. We cannot claim any relief from the CIL levy on this, because the property has to have been lived in six months out of the twelve prior to the planning application for the new build. We cant live in the house to achieve this because its too dangerous as it is falling down with huge cracks in the walls etc

We want to make as good of a job as possible of renovating the current building so it will require approx 50% of it to be demolished, then new foundations laid and the house can then be rebuilt.

What i want to know is, could we demolish say 95% of the building, put new foundations down and rebuild it without the council considering it to be a new development? Bob.

 

[noseall]

First this.....

.after taking a lot of advice from the professionals, we very reluctantly decided to demolish the house and build a virtual replica of it on a piled foundation. Shortly after starting work clearing the site......

and then this.....

Hi everybody! The original building with the subsidence is still standing.

subsequently....

Hi everybody! I don't think i made myself very clear.

...er, no.

 

[Bobthebuilder58]

I hope any further replies i may get are more helpful than the last one

We did take the decision to demolish the house but hadn't actually done it when we got the shocking news about the CIL levy. We would have waited until we received full planning permission to build a replacement dwelling before we knocked down the old one.

 

[jabuzzard]

Hi everybody! I don't think i made myself very clear. The original building with the subsidence is still standing. We cannot claim any relief from the CIL levy on this, because the property has to have been lived in six months out of the twelve prior to the planning application for the new build. We cant live in the house to achieve this because its too dangerous as it is falling down with huge cracks in the walls etc

For £38,000 I would be tempted to make small corner safe and live in it for six months, then claim the relief on the CLI. Heck offer it rent free to someone who is homeless then you don't have to live in it.

However you then go onto say you are going to be demolishing 50% of the original house, but in the next sentence say 95%. That is still as clear as mud I am afraid.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I hope any further replies i may get are more helpful than the last one

Its no good complaining, if you want advice you will have to explain yourself more clearly, its still not clear what you have (or have not) done.

 

[^woody^]

Firstly, you need to check whether any CIL actually does apply, or can be legitimately applied.

Bare in mind that the six month occupation rule does not mean that you actually need to be living there. Paying full council tax, paying utility bills, and having post delivered may help in defining occupancy.

There are precedents on what is repair and what is rebuild under planning regulations. If your repairs leave a completely or drastically new or different building, then it is deemed rebuilt - especially if this is done over a brief period of time and appears to be intended. Engaging on a repair which then gets bigger and involves more extensive unknown or unplanned work, will also be deemed rebuilding if the end result is a completely new or different building

 

[Bobthebuilder58]

Thanks for that Woody. This is what i need to establish!!! Is there an actual planning rule to determine how much of a house you can knock down and rebuild before it is considered to be a rebuild. To fix our house properly i would need to take the roof off and demolish approx 50% of it and rebuild it on exactly the same footprint in exactly the same style.

The local planners and all the local busy bodys are keeping a very close eye on what we are doing to this property so i have to keep 100% within the planning law.

 

[Bobthebuilder58]

I hope any further replies i may get are more helpful than the last one

Its no good complaining, if you want advice you will have to explain yourself more clearly, its still not clear what you have (or have not) done.

50% is the minimum we would need to demolish the house but anything up to 95% would be better,if we would be allowed to do it.

 

[^woody^]

The limits are defined in precedent and not specifically within the planning regulations. There is one such precedent where it was decided that demolition and rebuilding of two external walls was repair. However after doing so, when the owner then went on to rebuild the other two walls, this amounted to reconstruction and required permission.

Each case turns on its own facts, and it is a matter of 'fact and degree' as to what is repair and what is reconstruction.

 

[Bobthebuilder58]

Thanks for that Woody, i guess we will have to approach the local planning dept and see what they have to say Bob.