Which BAL products?

[darkmoomin]

Hi All,

Have bought my first house an its a massive renovation project so doing alot of fast learning about many things.

We are finally starting to make things good again and I've started looking into tiles for bathroom and kitchen floors and walls. We have pretty much decided what we are going to get for those, so I started to look into what grout and adhesives I need to source. Reading on here I decided that it was worth doing the job properly and getting the BAL stuff.

I used the BAL powerspec online website to find out which products were best suioted to my tiles, but it ended up recommending ready mixed adhesives for the walls. I was just wondering if I listed out what tiles we were using and what products the website recommnded you could give your opinioons as to whether these are the best way to go.

Bathroom Floor
subfloor of 18mm wbp exterior ply screwed at 20cm centres to all joists, which are at about 30-40cm centres if memory serves.

Original Style victorian floor tiles, fully vitrified unglazed ceramic tiles, mostly 151 x 151 cm, with smaller tiles making up a border.

Products suggested by the website were Grey one part FastFlex adhesive and micro colour widejoint (I would get it in white) with admix GT1 added.

Bathroom walls
Will be tiled onto plasterboard (not sure if it needs to be MR) behind the sink, and onto aqua panel in the shower.

Should the aquapanel be skimmed or is it not worth it?

Tiles will be 300x200cm glazed ceramic.

products suggested were BAL white star and microflex grout.

Kitchen Floor
18mm ply subfloor, as in bathroom.

Tiles will be calibrated riven slate 10-12mm thick in sizes from 30x30 cm to 60x60cm.

website suggested single part fastflex grey and microcolour wide joint (in smoke) with admix gt1.

Kitchen walls

will be tiled onto skimmed plasterboard or existing concrete render and skim.

tiles are 10x20cm glazed ceramic.

suggested products are BAL bluestar with microflex grout. Would there be any problem with using the white star and microcolour wide joint (which seems to be suitable from 2mm anyway) as I would be getting that for the bathroom?

I am also hoping to fit 2 60x90 (12-14mm thick) slate tiles as a splashback for the hob, they will be fitted to existing concrete render and skim. Which adhesive and grout would be best for this? what is the best way to prepare the surface to hold such heavy tiles?

In all rooms I like the anti bac and water resistant properties of the microcolour range.

Oh yes, will be sealing the slate with Lithofin MN Stainstop and the bathroom tiles with Lithofin KF stainstop, as recommended by tile seller.

Thanks in advance for any help, I am well and truly confused - I think its a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing!

 

[Richard C]

Bathroom Floor
subfloor of 18mm wbp exterior ply screwed at 20cm centres to all joists, which are at about 30-40cm centres if memory serves.
Original Style victorian floor tiles, fully vitrified unglazed ceramic tiles, mostly 151 x 151 cm, with smaller tiles making up a border.
Products suggested by the website were Grey one part FastFlex adhesive and micro colour widejoint (I would get it in white) with admix GT1 added.

18mm is the minimum thickness WBP you should use & although is enough in most average size bathrooms, the thickness of WBP you need is dictated by the size/pitch/span of the supporting joists; you need to be more accurate than 30-40cm’s. You must support board joints either down the centre line of a joist or fix intermediate noggins; these are generally not necessary on the two unsupported edges around the walls unless it’s across a door threshold or subject to any loading; I fix @ 150mm centers.

Fastflex is fine but maybe not necessary; as long as there is no discernable flex in the floor, either Single part Flexible or (my favorite) Rapidset Flexible. Micro colour wide joint it good but why the Admix? Again not necessary as long as the floor is rigid.

Not sure of the wisdom of selecting unglazed tiles & I generally don’t advise white grout for floors even in bathrooms, it can look very dingy after a relatively short time.

Bathroom walls
Will be tiled onto plasterboard (not sure if it needs to be MR) behind the sink, and onto aqua panel in the shower.

Use MR plasterboard but if you need to plaster (if your half tiling), it must be primed first.

Should the aquapanel be skimmed or is it not worth it?

You cannot skim Aquapanel (well you can if you know how) but, no, don’t skim anything, just tile straight onto it. Plastering reduces maximum tile weight 20kg/sqm including addy & grout & those are biggish tiles. Make sure the board joints don’t coincide with the tile grout lines tape all board joints & seal with a skim of addy just before you tile.

Tiles will be 300x200cm glazed ceramic.
products suggested were BAL white star and microflex grout.

White Star is good stuff but I wouldn’t use it on tiles that size. I always use a powder cement addy on tiles any larger than around 200mm or you could have problems with adhesion & you’ll wait forever for the addy to dry before grouting; use flexi addy on PB or Aquapanel which in some cases can be grouted after 3 hours but at least next day. You must prime plaster or plaster board (but not Aquapanel) with an acrylic/SBR primer when using powder addy to avoid possible reaction between the gypsum & cement in the addy. Micrpoflex grout is fine.

Kitchen Floor
18mm ply subfloor, as in bathroom.

In a heavy traffic use area such as a kitchen, 18mm WBP is not thick enough IMO but, again, it depends on the size/pitch/span of the supporting joists. I would use 25mm WBP in such a heavy use/load area or you could risk failure.

Tiles will be calibrated riven slate 10-12mm thick in sizes from 30x30 cm to 60x60cm.

website suggested single part fastflex grey and microcolour wide joint (in smoke) with admix gt1.

As for the bathroom floor above, I would use Rapidset flexible; Microcolour wide joint but without the Admix on a rigid floor.

Kitchen walls
will be tiled onto skimmed plasterboard or existing concrete render and skim.

Tile over the existing render if you can; if you re-render with conventional sand/cement, you will have to wait up to 4 weeks for it to set until you can tile or use a quickset render (can be expensive). Again DO NOT skim the PB, it’s not necessary & reduces permissible tile weight.

tiles are 10x20cm glazed ceramic.
suggested products are BAL bluestar with microflex grout. Would there be any problem with using the white star and microcolour wide joint (which seems to be suitable from 2mm anyway) as I would be getting that for the bathroom?

I would use White Star. The wide joint Microcolour should be OK but for tha sake of a few quid I would buy standard Microcolour grout.

I am also hoping to fit 2 60x90 (12-14mm thick) slate tiles as a splashback for the hob, they will be fitted to existing concrete render and skim. Which adhesive and grout would be best for this? what is the best way to prepare the surface to hold such heavy tiles?
In all rooms I like the anti bac and water resistant properties of the microcolour range.

Gypsum plaster of any sort will not take that weight, it will fail. Cement render in perfect condition will take up to 40kg/sqm which will probably not be enough either as tiles that thickness can easily weigh 45-50 kg/sqm; you need to find out the weight/sqm of the slate & remember that must include addy & grout of 4kg/sqm in your case. Marmox backer boards will take up 60kg/sqm but, you need to check those weights. Only powder cement addy will stand any chance of holding them up but I’ve never fitted anything that size/weight. Rapidset should be OK but check the maximum support weight with BAL. Microcolour grout will be fine. Good luck with getting them to stay up there long enough for the addy to go off.

Oh yes, will be sealing the slate with Lithofin MN Stainstop and the bathroom tiles with Lithofin KF stainstop, as recommended by tile seller.

Should be OK as long as you keep it well sealed but, as above, personally I would question the wisdom of unglazed tiles. Sealer may also make them rather slippery & rather defeats the object a bit.

Thanks in advance for any help, I am well and truly confused - I think its a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing!

For a DIY your projects are rather ambitious if you’ve no experience, I would advise you read the tiling sticky & Tiling Forum archive posts in some detail before committing to it & come back if you need specific advice.

& that’s some load of questions you posted there M8, probably why you initially got no other takers.

 

[darkmoomin]

Thanks for all the info - when I looked back at the post, I did wonder if I had put too much in one go!

We have got the ply down in the kitchen area now, and it is solid, so hopefully the 18mm will be enough. Joists are solid and quite close together, but not living in the house so can't measuure exactly at the mo.

All the ply edges are screwed onto the centres of joists, and there is very little movement at all.

The tiles are unglazed because they are victorial style ones and that's just how they are. Apparently witht eh stain stop being an impregnator it doesn't affect the slippyness as it doesn't make them glossy.

I know this seems a stupid question, but how do you guage discernable flex... the floors all have a slight bounce, as I would expect from a wooden floor in a victorian house, but its not bouncing massively but its not solid like concrete either... is there a good way of assessing how much flex we need in the adhesive?

If I've read you correctly I should be OK with the flex or rapid flex adhesive throughout? for all walls and floors, providing there is no flex in the floors. And likewise, aside formt he kitchen floor where we want the smnoke colour, I could use microflex grout throughout?

With the splashbacks, the area they are going is partly existing render and skim, and partly back to the brick. I take it I am better going right back to the brick and using backer boards for this small area?

Would the fact the bottoms of the tiles will be on the worksurface make any difference in that they are supported?

It id possible that I could change these for 2 600x600 and 2 600 x 300 tiles, these would be thinner so lighter, but I assume the same weight issues apply as the area covered by them is the same? of does the extra grout lines mean the adhesive will go off quicker?

I'm am the least experienced of the work force (Me, other half and father in law) but I have the role of research, product sourcing and general skivvy and tea masher! So I am trying to find out the specifics of the products that we want and how to fit them etc, to help inform my experience father in law who is doing most of the skilled work!


Thanks again for all the help, I think I am slowly getting clear on what's needed, I think your advise makes it clear where its worth spending the money!

ETA: Wow - I really need to learn how to write concise posts! Sorry

 

[Richard C]

We have got the ply down in the kitchen area now, and it is solid, so hopefully the 18mm will be enough. Joists are solid and quite close together, but not living in the house so can't measuure exactly at the mo. All the ply edges are screwed onto the centres of joists, and there is very little movement at all.

The BS recomended ply thicknes for tiling suspended floors is actually 25mm & 15mm for overboarding; addy manufacturers usually specify this in their warranty conditions. But we know that in many casses we can get away with 22 or even 18mm in light use bath/shower rooms but it has to be assesed in each case. I would consider overboarding with something like Hardy backer board over the 18mm ply in the kitchen, what you currently have is marginal for a heavy load/use area.

I forgot to add in my last post that the underside & edges of the WBP should be sealed with an Acrylic/SBR primer, to keep moisture out & the ply tile base stable; if (even ambient) moisture gets into the underside/edges, the ply can warp or curl = tile failure.

I know this seems a stupid question, but how do you guage discernable flex... the floors all have a slight bounce, as I would expect from a wooden floor in a victorian house, but its not bouncing massively but its not solid like concrete either... is there a good way of assessing how much flex we need in the adhesive?

The thickness of WBP you will need is generally a factor of the joist size/pitch/span but in older houses, the floor is still too springy & you have to resort to additional joists, sometimes noggins & even sistering joists to stiffen it all up. There should certainly be NO bounce or even discernable movement in the floor or you risk expensive tile failure. I advise you get the floor right first before proceeding. Maybe you should go back to Your original spec of Fastflex & Admix in the grout but it’s going to cost you a lot more & if you exceed the permissible flex of the products, it will still fail.

If I've read you correctly I should be OK with the flex or rapid flex adhesive throughout? for all walls and floors, providing there is no flex in the floors. And likewise, aside formt he kitchen floor where we want the smnoke colour, I could use microflex grout throughout?

They are mostly what I use but over a rigid floor; I’ve never had a tile failure but see what I’ve said above about flex, board thickness & beefing up the joists.

With the splashbacks, the area they are going is partly existing render and skim, and partly back to the brick. I take it I am better going right back to the brick and using backer boards for this small area?

You really need to check the weight but if the render condition/bond is unknown, you would be best tiling onto mechanically well fixed backer boards; you can either fix through the render or strip it back.

One other thing you must take into account is if any of the walls you’re fixing to are external solid brick. These are prone to damp & there are additional measures you may need to take; you cannot tile onto damp walls & any boards fixed to external walls usually need a breathable membrane & sometimes insulation to avoid problems. Be carefull when stripping more than 24% of plaster/render from old external walls, you can land yourself in a whole load of trouble with Building Regs & current insulation standards if you get found out.

Would the fact the bottoms of the tiles will be on the worksurface make any difference in that they are supported?

I would advise a temporary support batten anyway. Supporting them permanently on the worktop will definitely help with downwards unsupported weight but you will have an outward pull on the render the further up the wall you go & if the render is suspect, you could just pull it all off the wall.

It id possible that I could change these for 2 600x600 and 2 600 x 300 tiles, these would be thinner so lighter, but I assume the same weight issues apply as the area covered by them is the same? or does the extra grout lines mean the adhesive will go off quicker?

It’s the weight per sq/m of the tiles which is important but add 4 kg/sqm for a thick bed solid bed adhesive for the tiles. Grout line make no difference with cement addy, it relies on chemical cure. Tub mix relies on evaporative cure &, hence, why it should be use on large tiles; nowhere for the moisture to escape & allow it to go off.

I'm am the least experienced of the work force (Me, other half and father in law) but I have the role of research, product sourcing and general skivvy and tea masher! So I am trying to find out the specifics of the products that we want and how to fit them etc, to help inform my experience father in law who is doing most of the skilled work!

Tiling is not rocket science but you must understand the products you should use & prepare correctly to avoid failure. We get many sob stories on here simply because people don’t do enough research & use cheap, crap tiling products. It was all fine & easy when the biggest tiles you ever got were 6 inches square but things are considerably more complicated today with the preference for hanging large format & natural stone tiles.

Thanks again for all the help, I think I am slowly getting clear on what's needed, I think your advise makes it clear where its worth spending the money!

Do it properly & do it once is always my take. Initially spending money/time getting things right & not cutting corners on the preparation is far cheaper than to have an expensive tile failure, having to start all over again & do what you should have done in the first place.

 

[darkmoomin]

Thanks again!

lots to consider, but at least its not completely back to the drawing board.

We did alot of building reg reading prior to starting and for the most part we have been able to get away with not removing too much from external walls, it was the internal ones that have been shot! The house has very recently been cavity insulated, so we are hoping that we haven't got too much to do to meet regs on the couple of walls we have had to remove render. And the BCO so far has seemed pretty decent!

We have plenty of wood we can use for noggins so that may well be the way forward.

Cheers again, its very much appreciated, I am trying very hard to get the finish we want, at the price we can afford without a sob story or drama in the middle!!

 

[Richard C]

We have plenty of wood we can use for noggins so that may well be the way forward.

Unfortunately just adding intermediate noggins between the joists wont do much to add rigidity & stiffen up the floor; it’s joists you need to concentrate on, either by providing additional or sistering the existing ones works very well.

 

[darkmoomin]

Thanks Richard,

That's a job for this week then, going and jumping about on the floor, seeing how much it moves and working out what the hell to do about it

would an additional layer of 6mm ply or somesuch make any difference? or is it really down to the joists not the surface at this point?

Thanks again, again!

 

[Richard C]

If you can tell me what size/pitch/span of joists you actually have, I should be able to give you a much better assessment. The joists & their rigidity/integrity are really the most important thing when tiling a suspended floor. Adding a little to the joist stiffness will achieve far more than laying an additional thickness over the floor, especially if the layers are not bonded together; it’s basic engineering.

You may be OK with 18mm WBP in a light use/load/size bathroom area & I use it frequently but I would be concerned about using 18mm in a heavy load/use area such as a kitchen. If your really not keen on going to 25mm WBP (which I would), I recommend you consider over boarding with Hardy backer board. I wouldn’t add another 6mm ply overboard layer (pretty flimsy anyway), if you’re going to do that you may as well take it up & lay a thicker, single ply layer which will be far more rigid. Or, as I said in my last post, you could go back to your original, higher & rather more expensive addy/grout spec which maybe better suited; it may be OK as long as you don’t exceed BAL maximum flex spec. but, then again, maybe not . Give BAL a detail spec & see if they approve, they offer the service after all &, if it fails, you should be able to claim on their warranty. If you go that route, please let me know what they say

Another moral for you; make the correct decisions at the appropriate stage of your project rather than skimping or getting it wrong though inexperience & then try to compensate.

 

[darkmoomin]

Hi Richard,

Will have a proper measure as soon as I can, and will call BAL as you suggest.

I think if we are at all unsure we will go for the higher spec adhesive and grout to make sure.

We should be able to try and measure the flex too, we have a laser level and a ruler so will give that a try.

OH says he didn't think it had much flex at all once the ply was down, I was only really on it when it wasn't totally down.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice, I will report back!

Cheers

 

[Richard C]

We should be able to try and measure the flex too, we have a laser level and a ruler so will give that a try.

The amount of flex were talking about is minimal, if you really want to measure it, you will need something far more sophisticated than a budget laser level & a ruler Forget it you will get nothing meaningful from it & experienced assessment will be a far better judge than using a crude DIY instrument.

OH says he didn't think it had much flex at all once the ply was down, I was only really on it when it wasn't totally down.

Who’s “he” & what does "he" think isn't much flex & what does "totally down" mean

 

[darkmoomin]

Sorry, OH = Other Half

very little flex meaning little discernable movement, but totally down I mean when not all the sheets of ply were afixed to the joists.