Which bit of the architrave goes first

[Jupiter01]

My instincts tell me that the top part goes in first. Can someone provide guidance in this please.

 

[sircerebus666]

I was taught left side, then top side then right side, and I can't for the life of me remember why....

 

[big-all]

from a practical point off view the sides first means the shorter head will be tinkered with to match
if you do the head first you may have to rebate the hinges or keep [lock side]to keep uniform
iff you do the hinge side first at say 5mm setback you will clear the hinges and the lock keep
you also tend to get more problems with plaster being proud and in the way each side this can be sorted by rebating the architraves a bit each side with the head it can be floating a bit or even rebated you simply wont know from the front
you should alway hide problems away from eye level

 

[Deleted member 174758]

From the point of view of a joiner the head always, but always goes on first. The first thing that you need to do befire installing anything, though, is mark out the set back from the opening (normally 9.5 to 10mm on traditional work - BTW the didtance between the shoulder on the stock of a combi square and the edge of the blade is generally 9.5mm, or 3/8in in old money) using a combination square and a pencil. This is difficult to do accurately with a tape measure.

Only the two corners and two or three points per side (a 25mm long mark at bottom and middle, say) need to be marked out. That allows you to measure the length of the header, cut the first mitre (I normally start at the left side), offer this up to the (left) corner mark, transfer the second corner mark onto the right hand end and cut the right hand mitre. The head is then fixed to the casing (pinned).

Next a measurement taken from each of the top corners of the architrave to the floor (because left and right sides can be different) and right and left architrave legs are cut to length and one end of each mitred (taking care to get the mitre cuts the right way round!). The architrave legs are offered in upside down with the poins to the floor and if slightly too long (the flat end will fly past the top of the architrave) the bottoms of the legs (the least noticed bit) are marked directly from the top edge of the header and then trimmed as required (because it is easier to do a straight trim than a mitred one) before fixing in place. Similarly, if the angle is a tad off the mitre face can be tuned by judicious use of a sharp block plane - sort this out before trimming in the length, though!

This was how I was taught for City & Guilds and is how I've taught a few apprentices over the years because it not only works, but with minor adaptations by starting with header it allows you to deal with those awkward openings where one or other (and sometimes both) architrave legs need to be ripped down because the masonry reveal is too narrow to accommodate a full width architrave leg (or legs). It also avoids any need to tinker with the header

Edit: One minor addition these days is that I tend to Mitre Mate my mitres, before pinning but after sorting out the mitre angles and length

 

[Jupiter01]

This is really helpful.
Q. Once you have put the top piece of the architrave in place and you then cut the right and left pieces, where in the above process do you check the angle that needs to be mitred? Because like I learnt today, this is rarely 45 degrees!

 

[Jupiter01]

This is how my 45 degree mitres ended up. Is that acceptable gaps and should I use a filler for these or caulk them?

I need to tidy the plaster around the side.

Here is my second attempt:

I am unclear on how I find the exact angle for this mitre cut..

 

[Deleted member 174758]

This is really helpful.
Q. Once you have put the top piece of the architrave in place and you then cut the right and left pieces, where in the above process do you check the angle that needs to be mitred? Because like I learnt today, this is rarely 45 degrees!

On door casing it should be 45 degrees otherwise your doors will have far from parallel sides. If needs be you can check the angle in the top corners for squareness using a try square and adjust the angle on your mitre saw accordingly (shouldn't be more than a degree or two in practice - anď that sort of difference I can/would adjust by using a sharp block plane on the leg mitres)

Note that it may be necessary to Mitre Mate the corner mitres and pin the tops of the legs well.down then flex the rest of the legs into position (and then pin) in order to either desl with a barrelled frame or a warped architrave leg

Also note that your mitre saw may well not be cutting a true 45° angle and it may be necessary to check and adjust that before making the cuts. On the subject of open mitres and filler, all I can say is that tradesmen simply aren't allowed (OK, supposed) to do that on a build - it's a pull which would mean the archis having to be ripped off and redone. Filler never works for that long as mitre joints sre prone to opening unless you make 'em tight and use Mitre Mate! Even then a few might still open if the timber was badly stored

 

[Keithmac]

Not one door opening in our house is square (ex council). If it isn't completely square you'll not be on 45 degree cuts.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Not one door opening in our house is square (ex council). If it isn't completely square you'll not be on 45 degree cuts.

I shudder to think what your doors are like! Even on the old buildings I've worked on the door casings are generally within a degree or two of square at the top corners. If not it can help to make up a sample short corner from something like 2 x 1 PSE to offer in as a visual guide

 

[Keithmac]

I fitted 8 solid pine doors probably 12+ years ago now, they all fit properly but it was a proper ballache!.

We'd decorated the house top to bottom when we moved in so ripping the door casings out wasn't really an option.

WC and Bathroom were an odd size (narrow) to boot.

My Father in Law lent us his power planer, worth it's weight in gold!


Must have been a Friday afternoon job..

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Can also be settlement. I live in a hilly district where some of the door casings you see are sometimes pretty extreme. Best solutuon with them is to pull them out and reset them, but overall they are only a very small percentage of what I see

 

[mrrusty]

Maybe we each have our own methods, but here is mine, having fitted many door sets. I fit the sides first, getting the set-backs equal and the heights as I want them on the door head (and they may not be equal) etc, with the mitres cut at 45. As I use a sliding mitre saw, I cut the head with the lower, base measurement absolutely precise, but the top measurement a tad long and the mitres a little splayed. By offering up the top, it is easy to see how the mitres fit and how much the joint needs to be fettled - with the top held in place, if the gap on the joint being looked at is 1.5mm at the bottom, you need to trim 1.5mm off the top for it to align. With a laser guided sliding mitre saw a little thin slice is easy, and the top of the arch fits perfectly. May not be the old-school way of doing it, but works for me every time.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

With a laser guided sliding mitre saw a little thin slice is easy, and the top of the arch fits perfectly. May not be the old-school way of doing it, but works for me every time.

Why is it I so often feel.that "old school" is used as a term of contempt these days? (normally when being used in comparison to some brand new hot-shot approach which is frequently no better, and sometimes considerably worse or slower or less accurate than techniques which have stood the test of time...).

Anyway, here's the rub, "...laser guided sliding mitre saw...". Quite apart from not making those not in the know aware that such devices are generally only accurate to one side of the saw blade (unless you own a Festool Kapex which has two lasers, one for each side of the blade, or have taken the alternative low tech and pretty reliable/accurste approach of shadow line technology like deWalt did), I'm not so sure about your methodology. The traditional way doesn't even need a mitre saw (lasered or otherwise) - a back (tenon) saw and a simple mitre box, a manual mitre saw or even a speed square and a small portable circular saw with a fine tooth blade can all produce excellent cuts. Using a block plane and possibly a home made bench hook to adjust cuts is not appreciably slower than making cuts with a laser guided mitre saw. It is also a lot cheaper. In production work I generally cut ten or more heads accurately on the mitre saw, cut the legs slightly long and set off to install with only a block plane, a hammer and a saw. This is because the square cut needed to trim the bottom of the legs to length doesn't need a mitre saw to make it accurately. To my mind that beats the hell out of dragging a mitre saw (especially one with a built in laser, which can be capricious devices if you insist on moving them around a site) all over the place to make cuts. I know which i think is the quicker technique, and therefore the more productive

 

[mrrusty]

Why is it I so often feel.that "old school" is used as a term of contempt these days? (normally when being used in comparison to some brand new hot-shot approach which is frequently no better, and sometimes considerably worse or slower or less accurate than techniques which have stood the test of time...).

Anyway, here's the rub, "...laser guided sliding mitre saw...". Quite apart from not making those not in the know aware that such devices are generally only accurate to one side of the saw blade (unless you own a Festool Kapex which has two lasers, one for each side of the blade, or have taken the alternative low tech and pretty reliable/accurste approach of shadow line technology like deWalt did), I'm not so sure about your methodology. The traditional way doesn't even need a mitre saw (lasered or otherwise) - a back (tenon) saw and a simple mitre box, a manual mitre saw or even a speed square and a small portable circular saw with a fine tooth blade can all produce excellent cuts. Using a block plane and possibly a home made bench hook to adjust cuts is not appreciably slower than making cuts with a laser guided mitre saw. It is also a lot cheaper. In production work I generally cut ten or more heads accurately on the mitre saw, cut the legs slightly long and set off to install with only a block plane, a hammer and a saw. This is because the square cut needed to trim the bottom of the legs to length doesn't need a mitre saw to make it accurately. To my mind that beats the hell out of dragging a mitre saw (especially one with a built in laser, which can be capricious devices if you insist on moving them around a site) all over the place to make cuts. I know which i think is the quicker technique, and therefore the more productive

Woah!! you've read that as if it is a dig or a criticism - it's not! Nor is it in any way knocking hand-tools or traditional tried and tested methods (and FWIW I (fairly) regularly use my hollows and rounds some of which date from the late 1700's, so I am not totally enthralled by the latest power tools). All I was doing was saying "this is how I do it, and it works for me". I use the same technique with kitchen cornices etc - leave a bit too much material, then test fit, then fettle. When I make doors and windows I now use a domino - I'm sure there are all sorts of arguments why the traditional ways are better - and in many ways they are, but I don't care about preserving traditional ways just because they are traditional - if they work for me I use them, if I decide I can do it a different way, and it works for me I do that. I invested in the domino when I had to make 8 box sash windows from scratch and couldn't face 64 hand-cut haunched mortice & tenons!

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Maybe the point was that you suggested an expensive high tech solution when a low cost, low tech one would do as well? I have and use, several mitre saws including a twin laser Kapex, which is a nice saw for doing something like kitchens (or restaurant/bar/shop fitouts like those i used to do) but which would be complete overkill for a home hobbyist on a budget (or for that matter our apprentice when I have him cutting solid strutting out of 8 x 3s - for which he makes do with a 10in fairly basic Makita)