Which one?

[welshbikersdotorg]

Maybe the experts here get asked this countless times, but us laymen come into contact with a boiler 2 maybe 3 times in our life. So we don't really know what questions we should be asking, let alone what the answers are

Anyways i have an ancient boiler in the house i have recently moved into. The thermocouple has already needed to be replaced and since then the thing keeps leaking water It is the old traditional system located in the downstairs toilet with the hot water tank in the bathroom upstairs. I would like to lose the hot water tank as i would rather use the space for something else like a bidet or seperate shower cubicle instead of over bath when the bathroom upgrade takes place which wont be too far away.

So my first thought was a combi boiler as they don't require a seperate hot water tank. Also i want the boiler in the attic out of the way as the down stairs toilet is not that big Which is where the current boiler is so the boiler would have to go on the external wall behind the toilet and hang down past the window. The kitchen has just been replaced and i don't want it in there any ways. So the attic is the only place it can go with out being in the way.

My question is are there any special considerations to be made for siting the boiler in the attic apart from obviously having some sort of wireless controller to operate it?

Which boiler should i be looking at? (4 double bed house 1 bathroom +1 ensuite with shower, 3 reception rooms kitchen which has underfloor heating) running 10 double rads 2 of which are pretty big around the 8ft size. I need to be running 2 showers at the same time comfortably (3 kids+wife) The last house i had the previous owner had installed a lovely extension with a beautiful ensuite but didn't upgrade the boiler so the extra bathroom was a complete waste of time in the mornings when every one is looking to shower before work/school. I don't want to repeat that it was very frustrating.

Lastly, would i be better supplying the boiler my self and getting a price for install only or get a corgi to supply and fit the boiler. No rads being changed just disconnect/remove old boiler and hot water tank then install new boiler in the attic.

What sort of price will i be getting for that work and how long should it take?

Thanks in advance

 

[bengasman]

Personally, I never fir a boiler unless I supply it. I can not imagine how a householder can source a boiler for a better price than I can, unless it has fallen of the lorry. Also bound to be problems if incomplete or not functioning properly for whatever reason.
Sufficiently large i.e. 35kW or over will do the job for your needs. The one variable though is the incoming mains; if that is wanting, it becomes a bit difficult.
As always, the most important part is the chap who will do the job. Go for the cheapest, and that is what you will get.
Hard to say how much money and time it will take, all depends on how much needs doing, but a proper conversion you should be counting on 3000 or more and a week of noise and mess.

 

[taxexile]

for a combi to meet your needs other factors need to be considered.
ie,mains water flow rate remember water companies can vary water flow rates at their discretion and existing showers.gas supply will probaly need to be re run from the gas meter in a large pipe.
is your loft converted into a room if not a sturdy floor will be required to access the boiler also lighting etc.

 

[gas4you]

Loft must be boarded out to boiler, permanent loft light fitted, a permanent loft ladder must be fitted and according to regs a guard rail around the loft hatch, but I personally don't insist on that one.

 

[welshbikersdotorg]

The reason i ask for fit only is because often tradesmen purchase materials and then add 30% markup. Not that there is anything wrong in that business is business, but i don't want to add 30% to the cost of my materials for the sake of making a phone call and ordering the boiler my self.

I appreciate what you are saying about water and gas supplies, which is a little worrying given i read apost about some guy in Kent who purchased a 42kw boiler and didn'y have the gas pressure to have it signed off. It was actually a very funny thread with 12 pages of insults being hurled, i just hope bamabergaspipe doesn't work in my area So what the best course of action for me, get a corgi out to test before i purchase, this seems a bit 3rd world given we are in 2007 i would hope that supplies are up to scratch to provide enough oomph for any domestic boiler. But as i say i am just a layman in this and appreciate guidance from the experts.

 

[gas4you]

The difference is I will not warrant anything I fit that has not been supplied by me. This is what the mark up on the materials is for.

If I fit only, very very rarely, then any problems with the boiler will be attended to but at my usual attendance fees, OR the owner can call the makers in direct and chance it is not a boiler fault and end up with a £170 bill from them.

As others have said, I doubt anyone will be able to buy within a mile of my prices I get, especially Vaillants.

 

[Breesey]

The reason i ask for fit only is because often tradesmen purchase materials and then add 30% markup. Not that there is anything wrong in that business is business, but i don't want to add 30% to the cost of my materials for the sake of making a phone call and ordering the boiler my self.

Don't forget that any mark-up is probably based on the price that the installer gets for his loyalty, or whatever you like to call it, to a regular merchant and is not the price that you would pay at the same merchant. We were having this very discussion last week and if you can trust your installer and leave it up to him to supply then that is most likely to get you best value for money.

 

[bengasman]

The reason i ask for fit only is because often tradesmen purchase materials and then add 30% markup.

The only thing that really matters is that we have made enough profit at the end of the job to make the busisness vaible from our point of view, and the quality and total price from your side.
For one thing, you have no chance of finding the same product for less than I can.
Second, I have to spec the boiler, figure out what else has to come with it, order it, get it, and if anything is not complete or correct, I need to correct it. it may surprise you, but I don’t want to do these things in my spare time.
And unless I tell you bit for bit with full spec, all the parts you need to order, you will come back with the wrong stuff and several bits short.
That means that anyone who is willing to put up with the customer supplying the boiler, is either desperate, or really does not give a shiyte.
And when the boiler you got so cheap fails after 2 months because it was not new but reconditioned, would you smile and get your wallet out to pay me to repair the lemon you bought?
Do you bring your car to the garage with a carrier bag of stuff you got from the bootfair and ask them to just stick it in because you do not want to pay full price?
Do you bring your own wine that you bought in france to the restaurant because it is cheaper?
If your boss hired some polish bloke who is half as good as you to do your job because he costs less, would you call him a cheapskate?

 

[The Baker]

In all fairness to your prospective installer the mark up he/she may put onto the materials price is usually to cover the "come round and see you / find out what your requirements are / design a system that will meet your requirements"" time.

Its very easy to spend time each evening after work,
discussing / looking at a rather old system that has given good service but is ready for a total refit,
which in the householders eyes is good for another 100 years.

Tim
PS Dont you have a regular trusted plumber / gas bloke in your family & friends network?

 

[welshbikersdotorg]

In all fairness to your prospective installer the mark up he/she may put onto the materials price is usually to cover the "come round and see you / find out what your requirements are / design a system that will meet your requirements"" time.

Its very easy to spend time each evening after work,
discussing / looking at a rather old system that has given good service but is ready for a total refit,
which in the householders eyes is good for another 100 years.

Tim
PS Dont you have a regular trusted plumber / gas bloke in your family & friends network?

I should have guessed that the only part of my post to be seized upon by the trades here would be me reluctant to pay over the top for a boiler. My fault i should have seen it coming LOL

I know a lot of trades like to think they get prices for materials no one else can even get near, just because they are "in the trade", but those days are long gone. With the advent of internet shopping now, it is perfectly possible for us mere mortals to get a competetive price. Gone are the days when when consumers only had a few places locally to buy their materials, now we have the entire country to choose from, indeed the entire world. Anyone that thinks because a boiler has been purchased online is going to have a "reconditioned" or a "lemon" is a little behind the times i am sorry, buying over the internet doesn't mean you surrender any of your rights as a purchaser. You have just as much protection as you would had you walked in to the suppliers on foot. It is law that all online retailers must have their trading address on the website, so you have a physical geographical location. Ahhh you say what if that location is just some dodgy trading address? Well here in good ole blighty we have the consumer credit act, without going into the boring details as i am sure everyone knows how to use google, if you pay by credit card you are covered with liability via the credit card company. So if you do have any issues that can't be resolved you simply make a claim against the credit card company, something i hasen to add is not the case when you pay cash or cheque to your plumber if he supplies it.

Sorry i am not meaning to be flipent here, after all i have come here for advice not an argument. But those days are thankfully long gone. Consumers are no longer shackled to a limited number of suppliers, the tide has turned in the consumers favour.

With regards to knowing a plumber, yes i had a fantastic plumber that i used all the time when i was in the property game developing houses. 3 days from start to finish to do a complete install of 3 bed houses and not a bit of mess to clean up after him £350 per unit with me supplying all materials. You see it isn't only plumbers that are capable of not only sourcing materials but the correct materials and enough quantity, not meaning to sound pompous but it is not rocket science. And thinking that only a "tradesman" is capable of doing so is a little nieve, and dare i say arrogant. Any plumber that says to me they will only fit a boiler that they supply would be shown the door and thanked for his time while i go off and find a plumber that operates in a slightly more profesional manner.

Why don't i just call this plumber back as i was so pleased with his work? Because his number was on my mobile which got stolen and he doesn't advertise anywhere Grrrrrrr ! My boiler went down a couple weeks ago "thermocouple" so i had to get into the yellow pages for a 24hr plumber, i am not joking i called 25 plumbers that advertise as 24hr call outs before i found one that was willing to call out, this was at 9pm Their idea of 24 hr service was taking a message and calling around in the next day or so. What kind of setup is that? it hardly installs confidence in their profesionalism

Oh well thanks to the guys for taking the time to reply, it is much appreciated.

 

[bengasman]

no wonder it takes you so long to find someone if you are looking to pay the lowest of the low.
buy cheap, get cheap mate

 

[Nixt]

OP- You are correct in your assumption that anyone can source goods at trade prices. However regarding protecting your purchase you can be assured that the sale of goods etc... will rest between you and the supplier not the installer (apart from their workmanship). The internet supplier will not have an engineer and will refer you to the manufacturer. Depending on the service network of the brand you could get good service this way. In reality the very few 'fit only's' I've entertained the customer has soon forgotten this fact and has seen me as responsible for it's manufacturing defects, for free, for life - which is why I stopped.

What I don't understand is why someone who seems to have the money saving ideas and the big buying connections still has problems days after the event.

 

[welshbikersdotorg]

no wonder it takes you so long to find someone if you are looking to pay the lowest of the low.
buy cheap, get cheap mate

Wrong !

It took so long because of the misleading adverts in the yellow pages, i was not even able to get a price as they "were tired after a days work" WTF ? so why advertise a 24 hr service

But you do make quite an assumption though, by your rationale the way to ensure you have a good quality trademan is to pay high prices.

If only every thing in life was so simple LOL

 

[welshbikersdotorg]

OP- You are correct in your assumption that anyone can source goods at trade prices. However regarding protecting your purchase you can be assured that the sale of goods etc... will rest between you and the supplier not the installer (apart from their workmanship). The internet supplier will not have an engineer and will refer you to the manufacturer. Depending on the service network of the brand you could get good service this way. In reality the very few 'fit only's' I've entertained the customer has soon forgotten this fact and has seen me as responsible for it's manufacturing defects, for free, for life - which is why I stopped.

What I don't understand is why someone who seems to have the money saving ideas and the big buying connections still has problems days after the event.

Of course, only a complete halfwhit would think that discount prices were only available to tradesmen. LOL

Likewise only a halfwhit would think that any fault on a boiler would be the responsibility of the installer. Assuming the instaltion has been carried out to correct spec there should never be any confusion. I do feel sorry for you guys as you must have to work for some real idiots that can't understand the most basic of things. But likewise it is also frustrating for the consumers when looking for a plumber when there are so many cowboys and idiots in the trade.

 

[Terrywookfit]

With regards to knowing a plumber, yes i had a fantastic plumber that i used all the time when i was in the property game developing houses. 3 days from start to finish to do a complete install of 3 bed houses and not a bit of mess to clean up after him £350 per unit with me supplying all materials.

Was he an illegal immigrant ??

He must have been desperate for work!!

They pay more than that in Poland !