Which water softener??!

[OllyA]

Hi-I live in a new build property, with a closed, high pressure supply. There are a maximum of 4 of us in our household, and we have a Range powermax boiler-which is as I understand, a type of combi. We live in the Southeast-with a water hardness of 279mg/l CaCO3 *(extremely hard). I am continually going through heat exchangers, pumps and valves due to scaling problems, and want to find a cost-effective way of eliminating this, and also as I understand-have softened water passing through the boiler/heating system, which will remove existing scale, and thus make the boiler run more efficiently. I have 3 questions:

1) Is there a cartridge system that will do this?

2) If not, is the only other way to fit a salt type undersink softener? (I have room for this).

3) If so, which models will be adequate-does it need to be a high flow unit due to me being on a high flow/closed supply?

Thanks for taking the time to look.

 

[Agile]

It would be normal to fit a magnetic water softener to the incoming water supply to the boiler. These are claimed to do what you want to achieve.

I am not 100% sure that manufacturer would agree to the use of an ion exchange softener in the supply. They are usually scared of corrosion by residual salt in the water.

If they did then it would need to be rated for a throughput of 20 li/min without losing too much pressure.

Unfortunately the way that boiler is designed to be used, lime scaling is very likely to occur. This could be reduced by lowering the store temperature but that would give less hot water and would have an effect on the CH.

So my advice would be to fit a permanent magnet conditioner and reduce the store temperature.

Tony

 

[OllyA]

Thanks Tony. There is already a magnet conditioner fitted to the incoming water supply to the boiler, however i've been advised that these are not effective. I've had conflicting advice from numerous people, hence I thought i'd ask on here. I'm told that when water is heated up by the boiler, the effect of the magnet conditioner is reversed. As you can probably tell, i'm not very knowledgeable on heating systems, so any insight is appreciated!

 

[Agile]

Obviously its up to you want you choose to believe.

Whatever you install it does need to be fitted correctly to be most effective. It is widely agreed that magnetic conditioners do work to an extent and they are recommended by most boiler makers.

If you go to Speakers Corner on a Sunday afternoon some people will be telling you that the end of the world is nigh.

Tony

 

[Softus]

It would be normal to fit a magnetic water softener to the incoming water supply to the boiler.

No it wouldn't.

These are claimed to do what you want to achieve.

No they aren't.

I am not 100% sure...

This is a chink of light shining on the truth of the matter.

So my advice would be to fit a permanent magnet conditioner and reduce the store temperature.

Let's be thankful that nobody's paying you for that advice.

_____

I have 3 questions:

1) Is there a cartridge system that will do this?

Yes.

2) If not, is the only other way to fit a salt type undersink softener? (I have room for this).

No.

3) If so, which models will be adequate-does it need to be a high flow unit due to me being on a high flow/closed supply?

I don't know - the manufacturers know.

Instead of an ion-exchange softener, notwithstanding the fact that these have other benefits, the cheapest effective protection for your Powermax is a polyphosphate-based scale inhibitor on the supplies to the appliance.

Consider the Aqua-dial Combi-Care and the CisterMiser CombiMate.

 

[Agile]

Not all manufacturers approve a polyphosphate conditioner before their boilers.

Vaillant for example dont on account of them causing blockages in the plates and that the users never refill the crystals regularly.

Tony

 

[Softus]

Not all manufacturers approve a polyphosphate conditioner before their boilers.

I really don't care.

Vaillant for example dont

If you don't want to use one on a Vaillant, then don't use one on a Vaillant.

FFS grow up.

 

[OllyA]

Ok thanks Gents-Softus, the Aqua-dial Combi-Care product looks ok, and seems to claim it removes existing scale also. Would this need to be plumbed in to the supply to the boiler-ie just before the boiler, or would it be adequate to fit it onto the 22mm incoming main under the sink? Do these seem to have a good success rate? Thanks.

 

[Agile]

If you take advice given by Softus and you are not happy with the result then I can give you his name and address as he prefers to post here anonomously! Think about why that might be!

 

[OllyA]

I'm just asking for all opinions at the moment to be honest-i've heard of these cartridge filters, I'd just like to know if they are genuinely effective-i'm researching all options at the moment, so all opinions are much appreciated.

 

[Agile]

They do have a useful water conditioning effect but this is achieved using chemical methods rather than the physical changes induced by a magnetic field.

However, they do have side effects. The most serious one for me is that they cause a lime based precipitate in the drains which can cause blockages.

Its also necessary to regularly refill with the crystals which are not cheap and has to be remembered to do it. The magnetic type do not need any maintenance.

Tony

 

[mointainwalker]

@ OllyA

NO , that is literally NO independent body anywhere in the world has ever said that a couple of permanent magnets on the inlet side will have any effect on hard-water/deposits.

I must reject Agile's comment that it is widely accepted that these things work, I would estimate it to be 80/20 against over various forum discussions.


The idea

"...that when water is heated up by the boiler, the effect of the magnet conditioner is reversed. "

sounds just like another piece of total nonsense. Magnets are very temperature sensitive, but this temperature is the Curie Temperature at which they lose their permanent magnetism and for the type of magnets used in these con-tricks ( note my even-handed approach to the topic ) the CurieTemp would be between 150C (for NdFeB) and 500C ( BaFeO ) so unlikely to be a worry in domestic circumstances.

 

[OllyA]

Thanks MW-i'm currently looking at either the Sentinel Combiguard, or the Cistermiser Combimate, which will be plumbed into the cold water main under the sink-after the drinking and outside tap, as i'm not too fussed about buildup on taps/showerheads-I just want to avoid expensive boiler repair bills due to scale deposits!

 

[Agile]

I have to disagree with Mountain Walker. Be aware that I work in the industry and he does not and seems to be retired.

I have also attended a CIOP seminar on water treatment and have followed the use of magnetic treatment within the launderette industry where I was on their trade association management team for a while.

She means that when the WATER is heated, not the magnet, she has been told the effect is lost. I dont agree with that BUT the water has to be moving past the magnet fast and the effect is lost again without a few hours/days.

Tony

 

[mointainwalker]

@ollyA

You will have obviously realised that you have entered a cross-fire of beliefs here. I would suggest you do a net-search for this subject and my belief is that that you will find no inependent study to support it.

@Agile

You are correct that I have retired but I am at least 10 years younger than you per photo and would be happy to take any bet you care to make on verifiable, provable magnetic charcateristics !