Wiring problem, please could someone advise?

[TheBartman]

Good evening,

So I was trying to be good and change some grotty looking light switches. Easy huh? Yup, but I managed to do it wrong. I don't know how, and I cannot put it back to how it was because I believe(d) everything went back in the right place.

The situation is...... a single light switch at the bottom of the stairs, and a double socket on the top. The bottom switch and one of the top controls the landing light, and second top switch controls the bathroom light.

The bottom switch seems to do nothing anymore, however the top landing light switch does work. I cannot confirm if the bathroom one works currently due to a blown bulb!! I am hoping from my explanation below that my error is obvious and someone can help

Bottom switch:

L1 - yellow
L2 - blue
Common - red

Top double switch (6 cores available, from left to white I shall call them white 1, white 2, etc). I believe one may be linked to a bedroom en suite:

5 black cables going into a "choc box" with a blue one coming out

Right switch (connected to bottom) - RHS:

L1 - White 2 red, White 6 yellow
L2 - White 1 red, white 4 blue, and a cable going L2 to common
Common - White 5 red, cable from L2 above, white 4 red

Left switch for bathroom - LHS:

L1 - White 3 red, White 4 yellow
L2 - Nothing
Common - White 6 red


In reverse.....
White 1:
Red into RHS L2
Black into choc box
earth

White 2:
Red into RHS L1
Black into choc box
earth

White 3:
Red into LHS L1
Black into choc box
earth

White 4:
yellow into LHS L1
Black into choc box
earth
blue into RHS L2
red into RHS common

White 5:
Red into RHS common
Black into choc box
earth

White 6:
Red into LHS common
Black into choc box
earth
blue into the 5 black cables
yellow into RHS L1


The ensuite toilet (I don't actually think it's working, it may not be the bulb ) is:

L1: yellow cable and red cable
common: 3x red

I haven't touched that switch, so I know that's not me!!

I appreciate that's a lot of messing around, but if someone can decypher and help a new family that'd be so much appreciated!

 

[riveralt]

You will probably need a multi-meter do you have one and know how to use it?
Also your written descriptions don't really help - can you photograph the connections as they are now.
I take it you didn't write down or draw a diagram of the original set up.

The power to the upstairs landing light is coming from the upstairs switch - the downstairs switch is controlled by what we call strappers - the colour and terminal locations of the red, yellow and blue should match at both switches.

You can separate out and disconnect your downstairs strappers (red, yellow and blue) from your upstairs light switch for the moment while you concentrate on getting the upstairs light and bathroom light working again.

 

[TheBartman]

I can dig out my multimeter, but I do not believe it's a problem with the actual switch? Or are you thinking about using it for something else?

Nope, no pictures of original, and yes, foolish. Photos to follow.

So, the 3 cables from downstairs would definitely be in the same mirrored holes upstairs? That would mean by assumption that the RHS L1 red cable was from the 4th not 6th cable...Assuming I made that mistake, I am good to disconnect those 3 as it's in essence just a mirrored extra cable, right?

What didn't seem right was the cable going direct from L2 to common, or is that normal?

 

[TheBartman]

ahhhhh something new.... I didn't notice the 2 bits of coloured insulation to help identify those cables!!

View media item 66326 View media item 66327

 

[EFLImpudence]

I can dig out my multimeter, but I do not believe it's a problem with the actual switch? Or are you thinking about using it for something else?

Identifying conductors.

So, the 3 cables from downstairs would definitely be in the same mirrored holes upstairs? That would mean by assumption that the RHS L1 red cable was from the 4th not 6th cable...Assuming I made that mistake, I am good to disconnect those 3 as it's in essence just a mirrored extra cable, right?

Possibly.

What didn't seem right was the cable going direct from L2 to common, or is that normal?

Not on the same switch but it could be to another switch,

 

[riveralt]

I can dig out my multimeter, but I do not believe it's a problem with the actual switch? Or are you thinking about using it for something else?

Primarily to establish which is you incoming power feed.

Nope, no pictures of original, and yes, foolish. Photos to follow.

Lesson learned then.

So, the 3 cables from downstairs would definitely be in the same mirrored holes upstairs? That would mean by assumption that the RHS L1 red cable was from the 4th not 6th cable...Assuming I made that mistake, I am good to disconnect those 3 as it's in essence just a mirrored extra cable, right?

Hang on until we can see a picture - but the blue, red and yellow (3 core and earth) cable appears to be your strapper from the downstairs to the upstair switch.

What didn't seem right was the cable going direct from L2 to common, or is that normal?

If the power (Live, Neutral and Earth) is coming into the upstairs light switch which from your description it is, then often the second switch takes the power from the first and this is normally with a link wire.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Upload pictures please, I cannot make out what you have be your post, seems like nonsense!

So you have single switch that operates the landing light, this is a two way light and the second switch is a double gang on the landing. The other gang operates the bathroom light.
The landing light only work at the double gang
Bathroom no lamp, so unknown if working.
Single switch has three core and earth only.
Core colours of live conductors are:
red
blue
yellow
I personally put yellow to com, red to L1, blue to L2

Could state the number of cores and colurs at double gang switch, they will be in sheaths. If keep them to sheaths it may help.

 

[TheBartman]

What didn't seem right was the cable going direct from L2 to common, or is that normal?

Not on the same switch but it could be to another switch,

It's on the same switch

 

[EFLImpudence]

Remove it before doing anything else.

 

[sparkwright]

There's at least two or three wires in the wrong holes, and it's hard to give accurate advice as we can't identify each cable correctly. We can guess, but can't confirm, as we don't know how many mistakes have been made.

The downstairs switch has red, yellow, blue from the same cable going to Com, L1, L2 respectively. This cable goes upstairs, and each wire will go into the same terminals of the landing side of the upstairs switch as downstairs. Also in L1 will be, for instance, a permanent red feed - and then also in L2 would be the red wire going to the landing light.

I'm guessing the bathroom has an extractor fan with timed overun.

If so, the fan cable is the one that has it's blue joined to all the black neutrals.

At the bathroom switch, L2 should remain empty.
Com would consist of the red to the fan, and a red permanent feed, which possibly could be a link from the landing L1.
L1 would be the red to the bathroom light, and the yellow to the fan.

But you need to confirm where each cable goes first.

In no particular order, the white cables you need to identify are;
A 3 core (red, yellow, blue) that goes to the downstairs switch.
A 3 core that goes to the fan.
A 2 core (red, black) that is the permanent feed.
A 2 core that goes to the landing light.
A 2 core that goes to the bathroom light.

That leaves one more cable to identify, which may be
a 2 core that feeds the next room.

You need to identify all 6 cables first, as the forum doesn't do guesswork, or trial or error!

Sorry can't give you the actual answer, but hopefully this will help.

 

[riveralt]

Looking at your jumble of wires it looks as if you have all the neutrals to the connector block - good.

You also appear to have 2 (3 core and earth - red,yellow and blue) cables. One of them will link directly with the downstairs switch - that should be the upstairs switch gang 1 that controls the upstairs light.
There is a second 3 core cable which will probably run off the gang 2 to another switch controlling another two way connection or a fan - is this correct?

 

[TheBartman]

Wow, lots of information to take in, and I seriously appreciate everything said so far!

Yes, the main double socket is landing light, bathroom light, and extractor, and the ensuite is also a light and extractor.

I think I am best off looking at this with natural light rather than torch or main lights, so for this evening, thankyou to all of you, and I will update tomorrow!!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Have a look in wiki for two way lighting, familiarize yourself with how they function!
Does the ex-fan have an isolator?

 

[securespark]

From all those blacks, it looks like you have a loop-in system. Is there a shaver socket, or other light fitting in the bathroom? I'm thinking, two for loop, one for fan, one to ceiling light and one to another fitting or shaver socket.

If your ensuite light is not working, it could be explained by the fact that, in putting the wires in the wrong terminals, you have broken the loop (the feed to the ensuite)?

You do need a multimeter (£10, Maplin) to do some testing on the wiring.

I would:

Put a new lamp in the bathroom.

With the power off, and proved dead, disconnect all conductors.

If you have a timer fan, you should have 1 x three core + E cable, each with one red, one yellow and one blue.

And there should be another 3 core cable for the landing switch downstairs.

With the meter set to continuity, put the probes across the red and yellow of one of the 3 cores. You should get a beep. To ensure you have ID'd the correct cable, remove the yellow from the bottom switch terminal. The beep should now stop.

Next, establish the reds that are attached to the cables with the blacks in the choc box. These are all live feeds.

Next, establish the twin and earth that switches the bathroom light on.

Then do the same for the landing. If there isn't a twin and earth cable for the landing light, you may find just a single conductor, or a single and earth.

Once you have done this, it's a simple case of chucking all the wires back in the right terminals and hey presto!

Was there a short link wire on the switch?

 

[TheBartman]

ok, sorry for the reply, real world interruptions...

In this setup, where should the link cable be going from/to?

To clarify, yes, both bathroom and ensuite have extractor fans on auto-shutoffs, and both have isolator switches.

I can now confirm the bathroom extractor is connected to the landing light. Yes, I screwed up big time when I did this a while ago, and yes, I am learning a lot here!

From what you have all said, I believe i can deduce and identify the below:

A 3 core that goes to the downstairs switch (the one not going into the blacks)
A 3 core that goes to the extractor fan (blue going into all blacks)
A 2 core that is the permanent feed (without the red from it nothing works)
A 2 core that goes to the landing light
I think a 2 core that's the bathroom light
So by elimination we have an A.N. Other

I am prepared to take a risk and remove all the cables and wire from scratch, and hope that I am not as stupid as I thought....

But, assuming I have made correct deductions, please could someone advise where the 6 cores plus link wires should plug into correctly?