Zinsser bullseye 123 plus (moved from Projects)

[Nicola Lee]

Hi
I am new to this but felt I should share my problem with bullseye 123 plus.I carefully read all information on this product and felt it was the best for my job,this being changing a dark oak varnish stain to magnolia satin finnish.
I followed all instructions,sanded down with 180 then 240 cleaned all surfaces,then applied the product,all seemed well.Gave a second coat 3-4 hours later,found this seemed to cause the first coat to cause slightly thicker patches but thought nothing of it,then painted two top coats of satin wood.
I now have a problem,the paintwork is sticky to touch 4 weeks later,paintwork that suffered marking from furniture moving just peels away from the woodwork,there has been no keying of this product to the surface,I have done 8 doors and 8 rooms with this product all of which are the same.
I have contacted zinsser who firstly told me the product was not suitable even though it says so on the tin then they said there was no problem with the product implying the fault was mine,they have asked me to send paint samples peeled from the doors for them to analyse but I don't expect they will actually bother.
I have spent the last seven weekends painting in readiness for my new carpets,I now feel sick,the time ,the effort have all been worthless and now it all has to be removed,I cannot cope with that thought.
I have the empty tin so thought I would do my own experiment as I feel there is something wrong with the product,I put some water on my finger and rubbed the dried primer and it came off turning back to a liquid.I have also painted the remaining doors with a new tin of bullseye 123,this has gone on as expected is not removed when rubbed with a wet cloth and finished paintwork is set as expected.
I conclude there was ,is a fault with the zinsser bullseye 123 plus that I purchased and presumably many other tins,has anyone else used this product and had any problems.I felt I should share my experience with anyone who may be interested.
Regards Nicola

 

[misterhelpful]

Zinsser products are usually very reliable, although your test does suggest there could be a fault. However, whilst their products do stick to most glossy surfaces, without sanding, there are a few exceptions that I have encountered, which make them a little less reliable.

• When painting shiny surfaces, without sanding well enough, you must allow the product to fully cure before applying any further paint, i.e., allowing several days for full adhesion to form, and not just waiting for it to feel dry (which is usually only 30-60 mins). Bare or keyed surfaces are fine to paint straight away as the product adheres much quicker.
• Oil or waxed finishes: Although some Zinsser products will adhere to most of them, some can cause adhesion problems, so I always try test areas beforehand so that I know what I'm dealing with. and whether keying or removal was necessary.
• Some household polishes and detergents will also produce a film that will cause adhesion to fail, if not removed before application.

It's easy for someone in the trade, with years of product experience, to learn these things, but, for DIY'ers who just read the back of the tin, it can be a much harder lesson to learn.

As for them actually testing your samples, I think you'll find that they will do so because, if they were to give you a false 'all is well' result, and you went and had it tested independently, which proved otherwise, they would be liable to more than just a faulty paint claim. (An unlikely scenario, I know, but possible.)
Hopefully, for your sake, there will be a problem with the product, and not the underlying surface, meaning Zinsser will offer some form of compensation. You may have difficulty in obtaining all the costs for the work being redone, because of the 'limited claims' clauses paint companies have. If it does turn out to be their fault, play hardball and don't just accept the first compensation offer, unless it is acceptable to you.

Just be prepared for them to come back and say that your substrate is the root cause. Even in this case, they may give you some form of goodwill gesture.

EDIT
One more thing: Your topcoat could also be at fault, especially if it is oil based, as these are generally more prone to issues. Many oil based paints now take a long time to dry and, if faulty, will stay tacky for weeks (even permanently), which can also cause softening of the primer, making it fail. So, I would also make sure that the manufacturer's of that product have had no complaints before putting everything on the primer, even though your tests suggest it is at fault.

 

[Nicola Lee]

Hi Misterhelpful
Thank you for your reply.
The product zinsser technical told me I should have used was BIN,but I had read a posting where someone had encountered the same problems I am now experiencing with this product when applied to varnish.
The top coat was dulux water based satinwood.
I have had the same problem with a pine door which had no finish on it at all just bare wood.The paint finish just peels straight off the wood surface,it is as though the adhesive element is missing,it easily washed off my hands,whereas the new tin of bullseye 123 is still on my hands since yesterday.
I have today put top coats on doors primed yesterday with bullseye 123 these I have prepared in the same way as before and have the results I had wanted. The primer keyed to the surface and did not wipe off as before,the top coat has dried and is not sticky.
I will contact zinsser technical tomorrow and ask them if they would like the empty tin to test,I will keep the lid as my evidence.
It will be a very big job to remove all the paint work as we have just had new carpets and I have painted all the skirting boards with the stuff.
Life is not fair,I have worked so hard to achieve a good job,hours and hours of work for the past seven weekends,I do everything myself,I have a full time job as a childminder so can only do this in the evenings and weekends.
The stress and upset made me ill last week and I have bouts where I just want to cry.I have today felt I need to take back control thus my posting ,something I have never done before.
Regards Nicola

 

[misterhelpful]

It is heartbreaking for someone to put so much effort into a job, only for it to go wrong - whether it be their own fault or someone/something else's.

We like to help out as much as possible on here but obviously can't rectify this kind situation for you. Personally, although B-I-N would be the most reliable product, I would have thought the Plus version of 1-2-3 would have been more than suitable for job, unless there is another factor like those I mentioned previously at play.

I'm not sure you would want to use another Zinsser product, if that is actually what has caused the problem, but it could be worth trying their Peel Stop sealer (even asking their technical department if they would think it would help might be wise) as it is designed to stop paint from peeling and flaking. I only ever used it a few times, and that was on older exterior timber windows and doors that were cracking and peeling, but have to admit that it did a great job of binding everything back down. I'm not sure if it would work the same way on a new, somewhat uncured, paint film, but that's where asking the techs would come in handy.

Don't be disheartened, and I would still wait for Zinsser's report on the samples before doing anything further, but you will get it resolved somehow. Even if it does mean stripping back, you can put it down to one of those DIY disasters that you can look back on in years to come!

I'm pretty sure that the Dulux water based satin has had a number of issues, which have been discussed on here in recent times, so it might be worth using the search facility to get some info on the outcomes of those threads (There's a link to a few below.). It may just be some more drying time is required, which shouldn't be the case after 4 weeks, but paints have so many new formulae lately, that some things just don't work the way they used to.

//www.diynot.com/diy/search/5432263/?q=dulux+satin+tacky&o=relevance