Vaillant discontinue VRC 430 before replacement is in stock?

[slup]

Hi

Earlier this week, I ordered a VRC 430 to partner a Vaillant 831 combi.

When I got the delivery note, I noticed that the 430 had been replaced with a 470 (20108130) but that it was out of stock.

The 470 is a lovely looking unit with a much improved graphical interface and a few extra features. However, I could not find (and still haven't found) a copy of an English installation or user guide anywhere.

Curious, I did some digging and was told by two different distributors that the 430 was discontinued and there were none left in the distribution chain, but the replacement 470 was also not available either, nor was there any ETA for it's introduction.

I seem to remember some similar shenanigans when the 430 was originally released with it being out of stock for months. The situation seems a little bizarre?

Does anyone have any inside information on exactly what is going on, and when I'm likely to see my 470?

Cheers,

Steve

 

[bell824]

cheers steve for letting me know this!!!
I just replaced a vrc 430c 2 days ago and had no probs getting it (i do work for them) and as of yet havn't been told it's unavailable!!

 

[slup]

That's interesting... I'm sure I could probably locate a 430 if I hunted around, but the 470 is also very appealing, but not if winter will have been and gone before it materialises.

Grr... Don't know what to do!

 

[Hufty]

Ordered a 430 last week, received a 470 today - stock is available, hurrah. Just hope they used a different website for translating the manuals into English this time.

 

[slup]

Thanks for the update. Can you tell me which distributor that was please?

 

[Hufty]

Sorry didn't see that - PTS.

Initial impressions are that the 470 is a step backwards. The 430 was easier to override if you want to boost the heating for example but it seems you now have to go in to party mode or day-off mode (although I haven't fully digested the instructions). Also you will have to explain to customers the difference between preparation and circulation of hot water, and tell the them how to get in to the installer screens if they want to change the heating curve. Oh, and to boost the hot water you have to specify by how many degrees C??? WTF?

Vaillant have got it wrong, again. For goodness' sake how hard is it to make a programmer? Why don't they put the WC in the boiler not the controller, produce an internal temp sensor for the wall (with no buttons on it), and then we can use whatever timer we want.

 

[slup]

Sorry didn't see that - PTS.

Hmm... It's PTS who haven't delivered mine! I'll call them tomorrow.

I'll reserve judgement on the rest of your comments until I've had a play, but it certainly does sound excessively complicated.

The simulators are online for the 470 if anyone wants to have a play. Still no English manual for download anywhere I can find!

 

[Hufty]

Cheers for that. So they get it together to put a simulator up on the web but not to publish the pdfs? How very Vaillant. I was wrong about party mode to override the temperature - just turn the knob. But cylinder boost still looks like it will be problematic.

 

[David937]

Sorry didn't see that - PTS.

Initial impressions are that the 470 is a step backwards. The 430 was easier to override if you want to boost the heating for example but it seems you now have to go in to party mode or day-off mode (although I haven't fully digested the instructions). Also you will have to explain to customers the difference between preparation and circulation of hot water, and tell the them how to get in to the installer screens if they want to change the heating curve. Oh, and to boost the hot water you have to specify by how many degrees C??? WTF?

Vaillant have got it wrong, again. For goodness' sake how hard is it to make a programmer? Why don't they put the WC in the boiler not the controller, produce an internal temp sensor for the wall (with no buttons on it), and then we can use whatever timer we want.

Ahh, so it may take a while before you fully understand everything with the Vaillant instructions

The pictures of the unit looked bigger than the VRC430, not something I'd want on the living room wall...is it much bigger?

AIUI you can put the VRC430 in the boiler and simply have the VR81 as the room temperature sensor.

 

[matt1e]

Initial impressions are that the 470 is a step backwards. The 430 was easier to override if you want to boost the heating for example but it seems you now have to go in to party mode or day-off mode

do you not just turn the centre dial?

and to boost the hot water you have to specify by how many degrees C??? WTF?

I didn't see this setting on the simulation, but on most the optimizers/compensators (commercial) I work on, the DHW boost setting relates to the boiler flow temperature. for example
say the boiler is serving an underfloor system with no rads and also providing DHW then you would normally set the max flow temp to around 55 degrees to protect the floor, unfortunatly this temp is no good for heating a cylinder so you have to specify a "boost" temp for when there is a hot water demand, the setting that you program (typically 25degrees) is then added to the max setting while the boiler is heating the cylinder (protection of the floor is then provided by either the controller turning off the heating pump or by operating a valve)

Vaillant have got it wrong, again. For goodness' sake how hard is it to make a programmer? Why don't they put the WC in the boiler not the controller, produce an internal temp sensor for the wall (with no buttons on it), and then we can use whatever timer we want.

I would imagine all of the above are available

Matt

 

[Hufty]

The pictures of the unit looked bigger than the VRC430, not something I'd want on the living room wall...is it much bigger?

The unit itself is the same size but the wall mount has an extra bit of plastic trim on the underside to make it bigger.

 

[Hufty]

I would imagine all of the above are available

Matt

Thanks for all your imaginings, unfortunately they didn't work.

 

[David937]

The pictures of the unit looked bigger than the VRC430, not something I'd want on the living room wall...is it much bigger?

The unit itself is the same size but the wall mount has an extra bit of plastic trim on the underside to make it bigger.

I've had a go on the simulator, bit disappointing that you can no longer view the timing schedules with the desired temperatures for each time window, all you have now is a day time and night time temperature it seems

I wonder if they have changed anything else apart from the menu and the aesthetics.

 

[matt1e]

Vaillant have got it wrong, again. For goodness' sake how hard is it to make a programmer? Why don't they put the WC in the boiler not the controller, produce an internal temp sensor for the wall (with no buttons on it), and then we can use whatever timer we want.

I would imagine all of the above are available

Matt

Thanks for all your imaginings, unfortunately they didn't work.

well I was only trying to help but thanks for the attitude
anyway a few points

Vaillant have got it wrong, again. For goodness' sake how hard is it to make a programmer?

you're right its not at all hard to make a programmer.....and any on the market today will connect to and operate your boiler

Why don't they put the WC in the boiler not the controller, produce an internal temp sensor for the wall (with no buttons on it)

wether its fitted to the boiler or a controller whats the difference? there will still be menu driven parameters to set regardless, as for the internal sensors then they are available also if that is the route you want to go
there are many weather compensated controllers on the market,that use non adjustable sensors etc that will operate your boiler don't persume they have to be manufactured by vailliant

and then we can use whatever timer we want.

You can

 

[Hufty]

You don't have many dealings with Vaillant or their boilers do you?

If you don't want WC then yes any control will do - how about a Danfoss 102/3 for customers who just love that futuristic bakelite feel. Only problem is their expensive new condensing boiler may or may not condense ever.

So I always spec WC controls. Of all the available offerings Vaillant was imo better because it factored in both outside and inside temps. A VRC controller is £130+ Could fit it in the boiler and have a better external timer (another £50 say) but then you lose the Load Compensation. Okay, to keep LC could have the VRC on the wall somewhere acting as a sensor only, but it's not exactly elegant in a customer's lounge. How about a VR61? That's another £60 and it's not a sensor it's a dog. All these options are to get round the design inadequacies of the controller and the lack of a "dumb" eBus room sensor, all these options add to the quote price.

As it happens, in my house I have an ecomax with a VRC410 permanently on for WC, and a Horstmann controller underneath for timings and a 1 or 2 hour boost. Not elegant, but positioned where you don't see it. That went in about 10 years ago so yes I am aware it's possible. It's just I would have hoped that Vaillant proprietary controls would have improved a bit by now.

VRC410 was bad, VRC400 was truly terrible, VRC430 was good, VRC470 is a retrograde step.