Glass Tiles Fell Off Wall - Hand Needed Stitches!

[NeoX]

I have been having a new bathroom installed in a property (where I'm the landlord) for the past five weeks by a Polish builder in East London. It was originally scheduled to take four weeks and it is now about to run into its sixth week.

The bathroom is a very complex project which has involved the removal of two walls and the ceiling. However, a number of mistakes have been made including having to replaster the ceiling three times as it bowed downwards. And he had to re-tile one wall because the tiles were not level. One of the floor tiles became loose as well.

However, the latest problem really worries me. This morning, my tenant called me to say one of the glass tiles on the feature wall had fallen off and smashed. I went round immediately to investigate and I noticed that there were small blobs of adhesive where the tile had been. I touched the tile above it and it fell off also smashing on the bath just below and lacerating the palm of my hand causing me to require stitches. Although painful, I'm less concerned about the cut I suffered, but more the fact that the builder has done a very substandard job of putting up these glass tiles. I'm also worried about the ceramic tiles on the other walls.

These are pictures of the feature wall showing where the tiles have fallen off:

Feature Wall

• NeoX
• 19 Jul 2014
• 1

Feature wall of glass tiles where the tiles fell off.

Adhesive

• NeoX
• 19 Jul 2014
• 1

Blobs of adhesive used to stick the glass tiles. Either not enough adhesive and/or the wrong type.

Broken Tile

• NeoX
• 19 Jul 2014
• 1

This is the broken tile that fell off when I touched it and lacerated my hand.

And this is what it did to my hand:

Shards of Glass

• NeoX
• 19 Jul 2014
• 1

Shards of the glass tile in the bath.

Lacerated Hand

• NeoX
• 19 Jul 2014
• 1

My hand which required stitches after.

The glass tiles are 600x400mm. What has gone wrong here? Has he used the wrong adhesive? Has he not used enough? He's returning tomorrow to continue work (after two days' "rest") and he'll find out what's happened then.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

PS: This is my first post, but I wish I'd used this forum from the beginning of the project rather than near the end!

 

[tpt]

before i start, are you sure they are glass tiles? 600x300 glass would be unusual, but not impossible.

Anyway, dot and dab of any tile is a complete no-no, but especially for large tiles. They should be fixed using a notched trowel to achieve 90%+ coverage.

Also the substrate looks pretty poor considering the amount of refurb work you are describing i'm surprised its not been re-boarded.

 

[NeoX]

Wow, this is very disappointing indeed. I believe he has tiled everywhere dot and dab. That's six walls plus the floor.

They're definitely glass - they're sold as glass tiles, they're partially transparent and they smash like glass and my hand saw the brunt of it.

I'm not sure what to do now. I've paid him £3200 so far (£1000 by bank transfer, the rest in cash) and still had another £1800 to pay. For my money so far, he's done the demolition, electrics, plumbing, installation of furniture, etc. He's already very stressed due to overrunning by a week so far and likely another week (for no extra money), and now this. He's Polish and I get the feeling he could become confrontational if I start making demands and he might even sack me off completely and cut his losses.

I have no doubt if I confront him tomorrow morning (when he arrives) about what happened and say that dot and dab is a big no-no, he will likely oppose that saying he knows best and that it's fine as a method. How do I prove to him he's wrong? I'm thinking I might need to get a pro to come and advise. FFS.

I've just read this link and his work is against the British Standard for tiling. Could I potentially have an injury claim against him for negligence if I employ a lawyer?

 

[AdamCH]

I'd say all of the tiles will have to come down and be redone - as a landlord you can't risk a tile falling on someone. Even if they weren't glass they could injure someone if they fall.

If he's done this then he isn't competent - you should have engaged a specialist tiler rather than the builder.

You say you've paid him £3200 with £1800 to pay and that for my money so far, he's done the demolition, electrics, plumbing, installation of furniture, etc. Difficult to say whether he's robbed you or whether you are paying him peanuts but it's far too much of a risk to leave it as it is though.

I suspect that you'll end up writing of all the work he's done and maybe the materials as well if they can't be taken down and cleaned.

If the tiles are transparent they will need a full bed (in an appropriate colour) or you'll see the comb through the tile.

 

[RogerBoyle]

What electrics and Plumbing has he done?? have you been given any paperwork ???
Is he qualified in either discipline ??
If the plumbing and electrics are anything like his tiling then you have some serious issues .

 

[NeoX]

Update...

I saw him this morning at the property and I played it cool. He initially blamed the tenants doing it deliberately because he'd had two days off and the tenants are not happy already. I then informed him that it happened to me causing me to have stitches in my hand. He admitted that he'd done it to 'cut corners' (he actually used those words) because he didn't have enough money for adhesive. I was shocked. I told him this is a 14 grand bathroom. Not having a few quid to buy adhesive is no excuse to do a shoddy job that could have killed someone and resulted in me having stitches.

He accepted he'd done it wrong and pretty much even admitted to deliberately doing it shoddily compared to how he would normally do it. He said he's making very little money from this job. I did not mince my words when I said that is no reason to do a sh*t job when I'm paying a fortune for it. I said if he was that short on cash, he could have spoken to me and come to an arrangement. We did that once already as I had changed the plans before the work began but after he'd quoted, and it resulted in extra work which he raised with me a week into the job. I offered him an extra £1200 (on top of his original £3800 quote) and he was happy with that. So, there was no reason for him not to come to me again if necessary.

One wall he actually did fine (the first wall he did), and that wall is being left. So, it's not like he doesn't know how to tile. Trying to cut corners has now cost him several days of extra work. The floor also seems fine, so that saves a lot of ballache, too.

He has now removed all the wall tiles from the dodgy walls and this is what was underneath:

Tiles Removed 1

• NeoX
• 20 Jul 2014
• 1

This shows the dot and dab technique used for the tiles adhesive resulting in the tiles having...

Tiles Removed 2

• NeoX
• 20 Jul 2014
• 1

This shows the dot and dab technique used for the tiles adhesive resulting in the tiles having...

Terrible.

I've now purchased all the adhesive myself from the shop where I bought the tiles and they have given to me the recommended adhesive to use. I have also purchased some tile backer boards for putting on the wall where the glass tiles will go. The other walls (where the ceramic tiles will go) he is going to cover in adhesive to provide a better substrate before fitting the tiles with further adhesive.

As for the electrics and plumbing, not had any paperwork from him and no idea of his formal qualifications, only his references and portfolio. The electrics for the entire property will be getting tested after installation for an EICR certificate as this is required by the council for my property licence.

In hindsight, I wish I'd used a pro tiler for the tiling and let this guy just do everything else (the building work). I had a bathroom installed at another property nearly two years ago and it went very smoothly and I didn't even meet the actual installer once or even go to the property at all during the entire works. I guess I was just lucky, but it gave me confidence that one man could do everything on this job, too. Lesson learned!

 

[AdamCH]

That is terrible and dangerous.

I'd be inclined to put backer boards / plasterboard where the ceramics will go also - levelling a wall with adhesive will probably work out more expensive and not be as good - seems to be lots of backgrounds that are being tiled onto.

Are you sure you trust him to fix the tiles properly - particularly the glass which might show faults more than the ceramics.

PS What's going on with that shower hose coming out of the wall?

 

[NeoX]

That is terrible and dangerous.

I'd be inclined to put backer boards / plasterboard where the ceramics will go also - levelling a wall with adhesive will probably work out more expensive and not be as good - seems to be lots of backgrounds that are being tiled onto.

Are you sure you trust him to fix the tiles properly - particularly the glass which might show faults more than the ceramics.

PS What's going on with that shower hose coming out of the wall?

I nearly bought backer boards for the ceramic tiles, but chose against it because it would've cost an additional £300 - that's why I just got them for the glass tiles wall. Adhesive as a substrate is actually a lot cheaper and the builder has assured me he can create a decent substrate with adhesive on those walls. I just spoke to him on the phone and he mentioned words like 'sand/cement based mix' and using 'PVA' on top of the adhesive to 'prime' it before fitting the tiles on top. These are all words I've seen on other topics/forums in relation to using adhesive to level a wall, so that gives me a little confidence at least.

I don't really trust him, but I think he knows he has to do it properly now because he feels bad about my accident and I won't accept anything less than perfect before paying him. I've also said I'll pay for all remaining materials and will pay him an extra £20 a day for the extra days he must work. It doesn't seem much, but we calculated it will take his daily profit back up to what he normally would want as a minimum from a job. It might seem quite forgiving from my side, but this guy doesn't earn much, has just started out on his own, is skint (and I know these aren't my problems to deal with). But more than that, I need to make sure he does the rest of the bathroom well without cutting any further corners or making more mistakes that I may not spot till it's too late, so giving him some small incentive I think will aid that.

Wish I'd gone for a different installer in hindsight, but those that seemed more established and not much more expensive were too busy or didn't want to take on the complex project. It seems finding bathroom installers in London at the moment is very difficult due to demand, probably from landlords such as myself!

PS: The hose coming out the wall is for a retractable hand shower, which is part of this tap setup.

 

[OwainDIYer]

As for the electrics and plumbing, not had any paperwork from him and no idea of his formal qualifications, only his references and portfolio. The electrics for the entire property will be getting tested after installation for an EICR certificate as this is required by the council for my property licence.

An EICR is not appropriate (or legally compliant) for new installation work. It will not detect fundamental bad workmanship in the installation.

If you have had notifiable work done to achieve a statutory letting standard then the council may require to see the appriate certificates for that.

What else has he not had enough money to pay for - are any connections taped below the floor or in the wall because he couldn't afford a junction box or a full length of cable? shower or cooker wired in 1mm cable?

If he can't issue the BS7671 Design, Installation and Test Certificates because he doesn't know how or hasn't the appropriate test equipment then he is not competent to work on wiring, and his work falls below the standard of workmanship reasonably expected of a tradesman (and the standard of care reasonably expected of a landlord) as well as the standard legally required by Building Regulations. The work should all be exposed and redone by a competent tradesman able to issue the certificates which will be required when you apply for Building Regulations approval, if the tradesman is not a member of a self-certification scheme.

Has this guy touched any gas or unvented hot water installations?

Aside - and you are doing this work with tenants in the flat? [/b]

 

[NeoX]

As for the electrics and plumbing, not had any paperwork from him and no idea of his formal qualifications, only his references and portfolio. The electrics for the entire property will be getting tested after installation for an EICR certificate as this is required by the council for my property licence.

An EICR is not appropriate (or legally compliant) for new installation work. It will not detect fundamental bad workmanship in the installation.

If you have had notifiable work done to achieve a statutory letting standard then the council may require to see the appriate certificates for that.

What else has he not had enough money to pay for - are any connections taped below the floor or in the wall because he couldn't afford a junction box or a full length of cable? shower or cooker wired in 1mm cable?

If he can't issue the BS7671 Design, Installation and Test Certificates because he doesn't know how or hasn't the appropriate test equipment then he is not competent to work on wiring, and his work falls below the standard of workmanship reasonably expected of a tradesman (and the standard of care reasonably expected of a landlord) as well as the standard legally required by Building Regulations. The work should all be exposed and redone by a competent tradesman able to issue the certificates which will be required when you apply for Building Regulations approval, if the tradesman is not a member of a self-certification scheme.

Has this guy touched any gas or unvented hot water installations?

Aside - and you are doing this work with tenants in the flat? [/b]

OK, I've just spoken to him on the phone about this and he's not certified to issue the BS7671 Design, Installation and Test Certificates. He said he knows someone who can test the work and issue the certificates, but I don't trust his knowledge in this respect anymore - it is probably just another EICR issuer.

From speaking with him, and having supervised the work, I don't believe there are any connections taped below the floor (it's solid concrete anyway) or in the walls. I will have to double-check the cable he used from the steam shower unit to the switch box (I told him it must be on its own ring).

He hasn't touched any gas, but he has plumbed in hot water to the steam shower, sink and bath - I don't know what 'unvented' is in this respect.

So, it seems I may be in an unfavourable situation. What do I need to do to become compliant given that most of the electrical work has been done, and assuming that it is all visible? Do I just need to get a certified electrician to come and assess, test and certify the work?

Also, I did not seek Building Regulations approval, so, from looking online just now, it looks like I will have to seek retrospective approval through the Regularisation process. Wow, what a ballache. Oh, well. Live and learn.

And yes, tenants have been in the flat the entire time. I've already discussed that matter in-depth on LandlordZONE forums, and they are being compensated for the disruption. In summary, though, the work had to be done during their tenancies as the old bathroom deteriorated rapidly after they moved in to a point where it needed completely replacing and the tenants agreed to live at the flat during the refurbishment.

 

[OwainDIYer]

OK, I've just spoken to him on the phone about this and he's not certified to issue the BS7671 Design, Installation and Test Certificates. He said he knows someone who can test the work and issue the certificates,

Legally and practically impossible. An electrician cannot sign off someone else's Design / Installation / Test. If everything is visible he might be able to sign off the Test. The person who signs off the Design or Installation has to be the person who takes responsibility for that work. Therefore the work will have to be redone. Whether anything can be reused depends on how much of the existing cabling etc the electrician is willing to stake his professional reputation on.

As this person has quoted for the work you are entitled to have it redone to a reasonable standard (and the IET Wiring Regs / BS7671 is the minimum standard required by law) at his expense.

I am not a professional electrician but I would not sign off even a socket supplied by someone else in case it's a fake off ebay etc and it later kills someone. At least if I buy a socket from an otherwise reputable supplier and it kills someone I can tell the coroner that I purchased the item in good faith from a supplier who is widely used in the industry, been trading for xx years etc and by doing so used a standard of care and diligence as would be expected from a reasonable person.

 

[AdamCH]

Adhesive as a substrate is actually a lot cheaper and the builder has assured me he can create a decent substrate with adhesive on those walls. I just spoke to him on the phone and he mentioned words like 'sand/cement based mix' and using 'PVA' on top of the adhesive to 'prime' it before fitting the tiles on top. These are all words I've seen on other topics/forums in relation to using adhesive to level a wall, so that gives me a little confidence at least.

PS: The hose coming out the wall is for a retractable hand shower, which is part of this tap setup.

Backer boards would cost about £15/£20 m2. A sand & cement screed is good to tile on but what are they putting it on to and will it stick, will it bear the weight of the existing + screed + tiles and how long will it take to dry out before it's tiled or will they just slap it on, throw some tiles on it and run?

Have they left you a way of getting at the hose fitting should it need maintenance?

On the electrics I did first fix on my own bathroom electrics with a qualified electrician to finish off, test and issue the cert but I arranged it with the electrician before I started and the work had planning permission.

I thought that there were greater controls and regulations around rented property and - suggest you act on the electricians bit of the forum & see what they think. Any reason to expect he's a better electrician than he is a tiler though?

The builder may not be earning much etc etc but the work you're having them do could be dangerous to your tenants - and they're living in the property while the work is being done which will be even more dangerous.

 

[NeoX]

OK, I've just spoken to him on the phone about this and he's not certified to issue the BS7671 Design, Installation and Test Certificates. He said he knows someone who can test the work and issue the certificates,

Legally and practically impossible. An electrician cannot sign off someone else's Design / Installation / Test. If everything is visible he might be able to sign off the Test. The person who signs off the Design or Installation has to be the person who takes responsibility for that work. Therefore the work will have to be redone. Whether anything can be reused depends on how much of the existing cabling etc the electrician is willing to stake his professional reputation on.

As this person has quoted for the work you are entitled to have it redone to a reasonable standard (and the IET Wiring Regs / BS7671 is the minimum standard required by law) at his expense.

I am not a professional electrician but I would not sign off even a socket supplied by someone else in case it's a fake off ebay etc and it later kills someone. At least if I buy a socket from an otherwise reputable supplier and it kills someone I can tell the coroner that I purchased the item in good faith from a supplier who is widely used in the industry, been trading for xx years etc and by doing so used a standard of care and diligence as would be expected from a reasonable person.

OK, this doesn't sound great for me. However, from reading around online, particularly here on Regularisation (which says "We will inspect the work and may tell you to open it up so that we can see that it is up to standard"), I get the impression that Building Control inspectors will inspect any work and certify it (as long as they can see and test it and once any remedial work has been done) at my expense. It appears that my builder just wings it without all the right certifications. Seems to know his stuff on most things (one of the reasons why I selected him out of 18 quotes that I had), but obviously just does work without any regard for compliance. He's a Polish builder by the way.

I've kicked off the Regularisation process with Newham Council now - I'll just wait for them to contact me and take whatever action needs to be taken.

 

[OwainDIYer]

I get the impression that Building Control inspectors will inspect any work and certify it (as long as they can see and test it and once any remedial work has been done) at my expense.

They will issue you with a completion certificate under Building Regulations Part P.

They are unlikely to issue you with a wiring certificate as no-one other than the installing electrician can do that.

Newham will charge an additional £292 + VAT for the electrical inspection. Unfortunately you probably cannot recover this fee from your existing tradesman as he presumably didn't represent to you that he was able to self-certify the installation.

 

[NeoX]

I get the impression that Building Control inspectors will inspect any work and certify it (as long as they can see and test it and once any remedial work has been done) at my expense.

They will issue you with a completion certificate under Building Regulations Part P.

They are unlikely to issue you with a wiring certificate as no-one other than the installing electrician can do that.

Newham will charge an additional £292 + VAT for the electrical inspection. Unfortunately you probably cannot recover this fee from your existing tradesman as he presumably didn't represent to you that he was able to self-certify the installation.

And he is not qualified to do that issue a wiring certificate, so where does that leave me? As suggested by AdamCH, I've raised the matter in the Electrics forum. Seems I have a lot to discuss with the installer tomorrow...