Survey says solid wall may be spanning open ceiling span, sound right to you?

[Klang180]

Ok another survey post from us. The survey mentions the following:

There is evidence of deflection to the first floor, suspected as relating to the presence
of a masonry wall bearing off floor joists in between the rear landing/bathroom and
bedroom 3. Further investigation via opening up is recommended, which may
highlight the need for either installing a supporting beam within the depth of the floor
or below the kitchen ceiling, or replacing the masonry wall in a lightweight timber
stud and plasterboard alternative.
Below is the floorplan of the house and I can see what he means but would they really build a solid wall over floor boards? Am I missinterpreting this or do you think this is typical surveyor's caution?

 

[^woody^]

If it's an old house walls were built off floor joists, and the floor joists did deflect. And magically, thousands and thousands of these walls and floors are still up.

Btw, deflection is not a defect.

A numpty comment, stating the bleedin' obvious, but without any practical advice.

The question is "is it in distress, or is it just how it is?"

 

[Klang180]

If it's an old house walls were built off floor joists, and the floor joists did deflect. And magically, thousands and thousands of these walls and floors are still up.

Btw, deflection is not a defect.

A numpty comment, stating the bleedin' obvious, but without any practical advice.

The question is "is it in distress, or is it just how it is?"

Hello Woody, thanks for your response. The problem with your question is I don't know how to tell if it is distress or how it is, any suggestions?

 

[Klang180]

He wrote this too:

There is at least locally moderate deflection to the rear of the first floor, where it appears
that some dropping of the wall in between the back landing/bathroom and bedroom 3 has
occurred. The evidence, at least within the rear bedroom is of a masonry wall, quite
possibly single-skin brickwork, except that there is no evidence of a supporting beam
below the kitchen ceiling. It is conceivable that a steel beam is present within the depth of
the first floor joists, although it is also possible that loading is being applied directly on to
the joists, which would account for the degree of deflection in the floors and the
corresponding racking of the door frames. It is suspected that a wall has been removed on
the ground floor, as it is considered unlikely that there was originally a single room
occupying the entirety of the ground floor in the rear projection.

 

[Klang180]

and this:
Further investigation is therefore advised, involving some opening up of the floors
alongside the first floor (suspected masonry) partition to establish the nature and adequacy
of support. The potential worst-case scenario, if support is found to be inadequate,
particularly if masonry is bearing on to the floor joists, could involve installing a steel
beam to span between the external side and party walls, subject to the adjoining owner’s
agreement. The beam could be below the kitchen ceiling or in the depth of the first floor
joists. Alternatively the wall could be taken down and rebuilt in a lightweight timber stud
and plasterboard alternative, although this would have substantial implications given the
disturbance involved to the bathroom. We must, however, emphasise that the issue with
the first floors at the rear is localised and internal, unrelated to any predominantly
historical foundation settlement.

 

[^woody^]

I'll have to read it properly when the rum has worn off, but for now I can seeva lot of conjecture, of maybes and could do's but limited actual statements of fact - which is poor for a survey.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Back in the day, they would use lightweight clinker blocks, to build unsupported walls, whereas today, we would build stud walls. Simply attempting to drill the wall for a fixing, will quickly reveal whether it is brick, or lightweight block - the drill will go in effortlessly, into block and the spoil will be dark grey.

I have a couple of such walls in my home, simply built on, or across timber joists, with no support below.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Is the weight of the bath a concern, in addition to the walls?

I agree that it's probably had a wall removed, chances are there was a pantry or similar where the wall stubs are. So it may have been built of brick, and its support may have been removed. In which case it may be a problem.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Is the weight of the bath a concern, in addition to the walls?

I agree that it's probably had a wall removed, chances are there was a pantry or similar where the wall stubs are. So it may have been built of brick, and its support may have been removed. In which case it may be a problem.

Assuming the joists run, top to bottom of the diagram, then the weight of the bath shouldn't be an issue, and the bath weight would be on different joists to the wall. If there are similar properties in the street, then the OP might be able to confirm whether a wall has been removed, to extend the kitchen.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

You can see the wall stubs on the plan of the kitchen. I'm guessing a back entranceway and pantry were there, the left stub would have been under the upstairs wall.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

You can see the wall stubs on the plan of the kitchen. I'm guessing a back entranceway and pantry were there, the left stub would have been under the upstairs wall.

I see your point, but if the plans are accurate, neither stub wall would be directly under that 1st floor wall, so the wall would still have limited support. A joist under that wall, if the joists run top to bottom, would have no support.

 

[Klang180]

Thanks Harry and Ivor. I think I follow your thread but cannot be totally sure. I think you're saying though that he may have a point as a full bath and person alongside a solid wall would surely put a lot of weight on that floor. On the flipside, the owner must have had a bath or two in her time and it is still up so not sure what to make of it really. I am pretty certain that someone claiming to be a structural engineer should be able to tell the difference between a stud wall and a masonry wall (even I could do that) but are you saying clinker blocks are harder to determine?

Looks like this may be more of a problem than first thought.

Very good on the other houses on the road but unfortunately only 3 others have this particular design and none of them have been sold recently and thus have viewable floorplans. There are similar properties to this in the area all with the tiny bathroom of that shape but they all have smaller kitchens which are about 1m less in length. Ironic that one of the nice things about the house could be one of it's downfalls!

 

[Klang180]

I was wrong this is next door, according to the measurements this is the same length of kitchen even if the floorplan makes it look totally different:

 

[Klang180]

And this is another interpretation of the floorplan for 'our' house from a listing in 2018

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Thanks Harry and Ivor. I think I follow your thread but cannot be totally sure. I think you're saying though that he may have a point as a full bath and person alongside a solid wall would surely put a lot of weight on that floor. On the flipside, the owner must have had a bath or two in her time and it is still up so not sure what to make of it really. I am pretty certain that someone claiming to be a structural engineer should be able to tell the difference between a stud wall and a masonry wall (even I could do that) but are you saying clinker blocks are harder to determine?

My first check, would be to find out which way the joists actually run, to determine how the wall and bath are supported.

Then work out the actual composition of that wall, rather than guessing. A plastered brick wall, is much thicker, than a lightweight clicker block wall. Around 3" thick, or less, would make it lightweight block. The blocks being around 2" thick.

With experience, you can tell the difference in tone, between brick and these blocks, by just thumping it with your hand.