1 Bed permissions, 2 Bed built

[frank999]

Hi,

Excuse the weird question, but I have to question what an architect is proposing.

I have had plans drawn up by him to convert a 1930's semi into two flats.
He has advised for the ground floor garden flat that Planning Permission for a 1 bed flat be sought, then once approved, you build as a two bed instead, except you call the second bedroom a study.

I think parking is the issue with a two bed flat - which the architect is trying to get around.

A 3mt ground floor extension will be added.

I think this would be OK if I were to rent out, but I wish to sell instead. I will retain the upper duplex flat.

Can someone advise, I will assume, once approved for a 1 bed - to then make internal alterations to add another room (a study - as the Architect wants to call it) one needs planning permission ?, in the case of a flat.

On a side note, if you use a Private Building Control company - I assume they submit final inspection certs to the local council for filing, are these documents linked/cross checked in any way with planning documents.

Thanks

 

[tony1851]

Strictly-speaking, you would need to complete the flat with one room and only then add the additional room. The reason for this is that you would otherwise not be building in strict accordance with the plans.
But how you treat the place after completion is up to you (subject to means of escape being satisfactory).

Private inspectors are more realistic about these things. However you apportion the rooms, the certificate will probably be vague and just state 'conversion of ground floor to self-contained flat' or suchlike.

 

[frank999]

Hi Tony,

Thanks, yes it was the validity of the final paperwork that concerned me - guess I need to go look at some Certs ... wonder if they get posted up on the councils website once a development is finished.

So we would get it all signed off (planning and BC certs) as a 1 bed, then add the additional room, but I'm curious to know - how the additional room is seen as 'satisfactory' - or do I just take my Architects advise regarding any Regs and go do it - with a vague description on the cert giving us the room to change it to 2 beds.

I guess its the mortgage company's that the paper work is mostly aimed at as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks

 

[cjard]

I think parking is the issue with a two bed flat - which the architect is trying to get around..

On a side note, if you use a Private Building Control company - I assume they submit final inspection certs to the local council for filing, are these documents linked/cross checked in any way with planning documents.

Depending on where the second bedroom is may influence how you market it. If the means of escape from/protection against spread of fire are not to regulations for the second bedroom due to its position you'd be wise to market it as a one bed and let prospective purchasers come to their own conclusion as to the utility of the second bedroom. That said, if you're building it to sell you really do have a moral obligation not to look to avoid building regulations (not that I'm saying you are) as they are intended to ensure safe occupation. I'm sure you'd be mortified to discover a child had died in a fire in a property you had built. While people should involve building control for any subsequent alterations that would realise a 1 bed, after the one bed is built and complete I reckon the incidence of notification for subsequent works not in relation to a planning application is far lower

Parking in my area, I'm sure, is the same for 1 or 2 bed dwellings. Yours may differ. Ask your architect why he is going the one bed route.

Remember that planning and building control are separate department. I've only ever known them to communicate on one of my applications where a load of my planning conditions appeared to contain building control concerns, and the planning officer even admitted they'd discussed the scheme with a colleague in building control, I suspect to gain some extra detail on how to make my life a little more hard work/extra hoops to jump through (the potential links to true planning concerns were a little tenuous)

 

[frank999]

Thanks.
I would have the 2nd bedroom at the rear, and access would be through the kitchen, reading Approved Document B section 2.3 tells me a window as per 2.8 should be OK, and 2.9 tells me an 'inner room' (ie the bedroom) should be OK as access is through a kitchen.

Walls, doors and means of alarm would all be implemented as per AD B.

Point taken about the marketing of the second room, sure the estate agents have some stock lines they can wield.

The architect asked about access to trains, which are 20 minutes walk away, and although we have lots of buses top and bottom of the road - he felt 1 bed was what we should go for in view of this.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Sounds like the architect wants an easy life to me. And he wants you to take on a load of hassle after he's done his bit.

If he'd said let's just get an approval under our belt and then whack in an another application after that with 2 beds I could understand, as his fees for that would be very minor and there would be no LA fee either.

 

[frank999]

Yes, I seem to be getting involved chasing answers surrounding this vague notion that 'it will all be OK, my other clients don't have a problem going this route'.

I have no experience of his suggested route for such flat conversion planning applications - hence I'm relying on him to manage that for me.

He must know what is and isn't allowed, and he seems quite confident that the process wont throw up any banana skins in getting it to market - he just cant seem to demonstrate to my mind how it all fits together, so far Tony's explanation:

"However you apportion the rooms, the certificate will probably be vague and just state 'conversion of ground floor to self-contained flat' or suchlike."

Seems like a credible answer, I'll will prompt my architect to be a little more descriptive in his answer.

 

[frank999]

Just spoken to a solicitor, he feels that if he were to split leases he would want to see that all the paper work and plans are in order, meaning approvals for a 2 bed be in place.

I will ask another architect to see what they feel about a two bed flat.

I am curious to know, I am splitting my house into two flats, I presume they will both go under one application, and not two.

 

[frank999]

What is the difference between a 'bedroom' and a 'habitable' room - in my local councils development policy they refer to 'bedrooms' - what if a proposed plan had a 'study' instead of a 'bedroom' as one of the rooms.

Or do they see the 'probability' of the study becoming a bedroom and view it as such, rather than a Study.

 

[cjard]

It is one planning application

Your solicitor is correct/hinting at the problems you can run into trying to sell it - the purchaser's solicitor, if worth his salt, will probably look to ensure that recent building works are fully covered by a relevant planning approval and building regs and if not will encourage the purchaser to back out or barter you down. This is why I noted earlier that you should market it as a one bed and let purchasers come to their own conclusion about the second bedroom

A bedroom is one example of a habitable room; an overarching descriptor for kinds of rooms where humans may typically be found for long periods of time carrying out life activities other than sanitary ones. Essentially if a typical human would eat, sleep, play, work or fall asleep in it, it's a habitable room. Calling it a study rather than a bedroom doesn't mean it's not a habitable room, but it does essentially reduce the number of people that could ideally live in the space which may be the more overriding planning concern in terms of occupant density, parking and private space requirements

The planning department will tell you that they can only assess the scheme that is put in front of them and its relative merits and contraventions to policy. While they may strongly suspect that your study will be re-purposed as a bedroom they cannot make an issue of it because that is not on the applied-for scheme. If it's highly probably and they're highly against it, they can look for other reasons to refuse your permission that do relate directly to what is in front of them. They also know there's *technically* little point in applying for something and building something else if you intend to market, or if there's a reasonable chance of catching you using the dwelling in an unapproved fashion

Consider too that youre paying your architect for his advice and experience with the local planners; this should be weighed accordingly against the free advice from an internet forum that knows nothing of your case or context
Youre the client = you're the boss. Press for the answers you require

 

[frank999]

"Consider too that you're paying your architect for his advice and experience with the local planners".

Yes point taken, thanks.
I am going to ride with it, but I've also been doing some of questioning as I had a bad experience previously with an 'architect' , who turned out to be very bad at maths ... I posted on here regarding him a while ago ...

I am told 3mt is the max rear extension I can add - for a flat conversion, the size restricting me to a 1 bed application.
I am also told by my local council planning dept. that 61 sq mt floor area is what is required for a 2 bed flat, my architect tells me that we are under (inc the 3mt) - I calculate it to be 62.59 (internal area 5.957x10.508) - I must be wrong some where surely, anything I am missing in the GIA calculation - it seems a straight forward calculation.

I have a 600mm extension from the rear - the width of the kitchen, where does the 3mt max allowable get counted from - the furthest rear point of the house ? see image.

View media item 93549
Thanks.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I don't really fully understand your last post tbh, are you talking about extending to the rear before you get the change of use from a house to flats? If so and you were to add an extension to the rear you are limited to 3m beyond the rear wall from which you are extending from, not 3m back from the rear most wall. Unless you utilise the Neighbour Consultation Scheme in which case the distances increase to 4m. Obviously you cannot extend a flat without PP.

 

[cjard]

If the extension is 2 storey then it's 3m back from any wall that existed when the house was built or,on some date in.. 1948 or something.. You can look up the exact date if it's likely to be an issue

Your house plan denotes a bay window. Not sure how that fits into an x times y calc?

If the extension is single storey it can be 6m under NCS, freddy?

 

[frank999]

With a 3mt single storey extension I am 2 mt under the 61sq mt required for a 2 bed 2 person flat.

OK, I am being told by another architect that he can possibly get me a 2 bed application approved, he has suggested to apply firstly, under Permitted development and something called the 'Neighbour Consultation Scheme' to extend beyond 3mt - this will get the ground floor area greater than 61 sq mt, he then suggests to revoke the PM and apply for a 2 bed flat.

The other architect tells me that you cannot do this, ie extend larger than 3mt then apply for flat conversion, and that 3mt is the largest rear extendable area allowed with flat conversions ...

I assume all the conditions required by councils is in their: 'Development Management Plan' policy documents ? I assume these are different borough by borough ...

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

frank999, clarify exactly what it is you are asking and respond to what you have been asked, the NCS has been pointed out to you already.