13A plugs will not carry 13A !

[bernardgreen]

Just had a thought

Could a mini CU ( the garage type ) be used to make the connection.

Individual RCD and 16 amp MCB for each appliance seems like a good idea to prevent one defective item closing the kitchen down.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I still think that any plug which is damaged by a load less than its rated one is not fit for purpose, and that selling such is an offence.

 

[JohnW2]

I still think that any plug which is damaged by a load less than its rated one is not fit for purpose, and that selling such is an offence.

You're probably right - but, if no plugs are capable of reliably carrying 13A continuously, it's hard to see what the law could do about it. If it is actually imposible/impractical to cost-effectively manufacture a plug that would do it, then BS1363 would presumably have to be revised and the plugs redefined as, say, 10A ones - and I'm not sure that would be very welcome!

If it were the case that just some cheap brands of plug could not cope with 13A, then it would be worth using laws to deal with them, but if it's all plugs ....!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Doesn't matter if it's one make or all of them - if the standard they are certified to requires them to perform in a certain way then no matter what the difficulties it is incumbent on the maker to build them so that they do.

Or to choose to stop certifying them as compliant with the standard and withdraw from the market for them.

 

[JohnW2]

Or to choose to stop certifying them as compliant with the standard and withdraw from the market for them.

Exactly my point. If your legal approach had the effect you'd like, unless BS3631 was revised, plugs would cease to be available, at least for a while!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm pretty sure that my "legal approach" is actually the status quo.

Were a seller or maker of a plug which was shown not to comply with the standard they said it did to be taken to court, I wouldn't give much chance of success for a defence essentially based on "nobody complies with the standard - it's too expensive, so we just say we've complied and hope for the best".

 

[JohnW2]

I'm pretty sure that my "legal approach" is actually the status quo.

I think you're probably right. So, as I said, if every manufacturer of so-called BS1363 plugs discovered that if they continued selling them they would end up in court (with, as you say, not a very strong defence), the world would probably be without a supply of any such plugs for at least a reasonable period of time!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So be it.

Probably the most effective way to focus everybody's minds on solving the problem.

 

[JohnW2]

So be it. Probably the most effective way to focus everybody's minds on solving the problem.

On reflection, I'm not sure that your legal argument would necessarily work, since it would be primarily dependent on the products failing to comply with the Standard.

I can't help but feel that the underlying problem must lie with BS1363 itself since I imagine that at least the more reputable of the manufacturers will have confirmed that their products pass the tests (particularly the temperature rise tests) specified by the Standard. It therfeore seems more likely to me that the problem is that the tests specified in the Standard are not adequate to confirm that a 13A BS1363 plug can carry 13A indefinitely (or, at least, for very long periods) without suffering damage or creating a hazard.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[AndyPRK]

how about a 15A round pin plug, if you want to keep a plug on it.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

I would get a 13A MK or other good brand available and then send it back to MK if it failed. I think BAS is correct, it does not matter if they are all failing. Just pick the best make on the market and persue the makers of that one to supply a plug that is fit for purpose.

It has alway been a bug bare of mine that landlords accuse tenants of overloading sockets when I have been to see burnt out plugs (normally where fan heaters have been used during a GCH system outage); because unless the the tenant has fitted a bolt instead of a fuse then the equipment SHOULD hold up to the job.

Martin

 

[JohnW2]

I would get a 13A MK or other good brand available and then send it back to MK if it failed. I think BAS is correct, it does not matter if they are all failing. Just pick the best make on the market and persue the makers of that one to supply a plug that is fit for purpose.

I agree in concept with what BAS and you are saying, but I'm not sure what either of you expect. If you simply complain that the plug was not fit for purpose (a la Sale of Goods Act, or whatever it's called these days), the greatest remedy you could probably expect (unless it's done collateral damage to your home!) is a refund or replacement product - which wouldn't help you very much.

If the law took BAS's approach and pursued the manufacturers for selling a non-compliant product, as I said, I strongly suspect that, particularly in the case of manufacturers like MK, the action would fail, because MK would be able to demonstrate that their products do comply, in that they pass the tests specified in BS1363.

So, yes, we clearly have a problem, but the problem probably is that BS1363-compliant plugs cannot safely carry 13A for indefinite periods of time. What I'm not sure of (per exchanges with westie last night) is whether anyone (BSI or manufactures) ever claim that the product can safely carry 13A for an indefinite period. It therefore might not be the the products are not 'fit for purpose' but, rather, that purchasers/users are not being given clear enough information about what purpose they are fit for! [message to my old English teacher - yes, that is a preposition at the end of the sentence ]

Kind Regards, John.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Then it is complete madness, the whole of the regulations set out to protect us from exactly the problem that this plug and socket arrangement is causing!

Surely something must be do-able.

It cannot be just a dead end to say that they comply, they must also not give rise to danger.

I have seen some examples of this as I say and I can honestly say if someone were able ignore the overload for long enough, a fire would have occurred in the last student house that I saw the problem in. The dozy students are out for the count until the crack of noon as it is, a bit more CO2 around and they might have had an extra long lie in.

I can see RF setting up some tests and getting to the nub of this



Martin

 

[JohnW2]

Then it is complete madness, the whole of the regulations set out to protect us from exactly the problem that this plug and socket arrangement is causing! Surely something must be do-able. It cannot be just a dead end to say that they comply, they must also not give rise to danger.

I agree with your sentiments. However, as I said, the crucial question (to which I don't know the answer) is whether these plugs are intended (by either BSI or manufacturers) to be able to safely carry 13A indefinitely. It's easy to argue that they should be able to do that, but it seems that they probably can't (at least, not always), and maybe no-one ever intended them to be able to? Perhaps someone should ask some of the manufacturers?

In practice, very few loads likely to be run for very long periods via a BS1363 plug/socket are going to draw anything like 13A. Fan heaters are probably the greatest potential culprits, but they are usually only 2 - 2.2kW.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would think there are quite a lot of immersion heaters wrongly connected by a plug.

I have corrected several.

Edit - Should have noted the plugs did seem alright.