17th complying

[ezekiel]

can someone clarify if:
adding a new shower and extractor fan from lights then
shower would need rcd
extractor needs rcd as its addition
other existing circuits dont need rcd but supplementary bonding would need installing?

 

[oharaf]

If you RCD/ RCBO the lighting circuit to the bathroom as well as the shower then no need for supp bonding.

If you don't RCD the lights then yes supp bonding

I know which I would be doing

 

[ezekiel]

thanks

 

[ban-all-sheds]

shower would need rcd

Yes.

extractor needs rcd as its addition

No, not unless required by 522.6.7

other existing circuits dont need rcd but supplementary bonding would need installing?

Why isn't there supplementary bonding already?

 

[ericmark]

shower would need rcd

Yes.

extractor needs rcd as its addition

No, not unless required by 522.6.7

701.411.3.3 Additional protection shall be provided for all circuits of the location, by the use of one or more RCDs having the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1 (Not like you to miss this you must be having a bad day?)

other existing circuits dont need rcd but supplementary bonding would need installing?

Why isn't there supplementary bonding already?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've not missed that.

Nor have I missed the fact that, just like there has never been, there is no requirement to bring existing installations up to the current standard, except as explicitly provided in the regs (e.g. 131.8).

If you're not introducing a circuit into the bathroom then the regulations on circuits supplying the bathroom don't apply to you.

Adding a fan to an existing circuit is not introducing a circuit into the bathroom, and there's no requirement to upgrade what's already there.

 

[ezekiel]

so in that case if i add sockets to a circuit then they dont need rcd, is that right?

just found this:
If an existing circuit of a location containing a bath or shower is extended, at least the extended part of the existing circuit must be provided with RCD protection. Supplementary bonding in a bathroom or shower room must be provided unless all the requirements in the 17th Edition for the omission of supplementary bonding are met.

701.411.3.3
701.415.2

can anyone clarify

 

[rebuke]

so in that case if i add sockets to a circuit then they dont need rcd, is that right?

No, as there is a separate regulation that states that all general purpose socket outlets must be protected by a 30ma RCD, and this would apply to your new sockets. You don't necessarily have to protect the whole circuit (although this is probably the cheapest way of doing it), you could put in a new socket with an integral RCD for example (assuming the new cabling doesn't require RCD protection).

 

[ezekiel]

so i can alter or add to a circ in bathroom without providing an rcd but must ensure supp and main bond is ok but if i introduce a new circuit then it must be rcd - is that correct

 

[rebuke]

Haven't got a copy of the regs to hand to check myself - where is the text you quoted from - is that a guide to the regs, or from the regs itself?

If it's just from a guide, then they may not be strictly accurate. As BAS has said the regs do state that except where stated you don't need to bring circuits up to date, so I suspect you would be in compliance not adding an RCD if the existing circuit didn't have one. Having said that, in a lot of situations (e.g. shaver socket) you're likely to be burying the cable at less than 50mm, so would need to RCD protect it anyway.

Also, I'd generally fit an RCD, as if someone died from a shock, I don't think a judge is going to look too kindly on you trying to use the argument that it was an existing circuit so you didn't need to protect it (even if it is true) - after all, there was obviously a reason for making it a reg, it's not just done to make jobs cost more...

 

[ezekiel]

thanks for input, finding it confusing

 

[ericmark]

BAS must have a different version of 17th to me. Under 701.411.3.3 it states clearly "All circuits" that's the 7th and 8th word in regulation.

I did miss out the NOTE: See also Regulations 314.1(iv) and 531.2.4 concerning the avoidance of unwanted tripping. but can't see how that changes anything.

Page 6 of regulations:-
Section 701 Locations containing a bath tub or shower basin.
Zone 3 is no longer defined.
Each circuit in the special location must have 30 mA RCD protection.
Supplementary bonding is no longer required providing the installation has main bonding in accordance with Chapter 41.
This section none allows socket-outlets (other than SELV and shaver supply units to BS EN 61558-2-5) to be installed in locations containing- a bath or shower 3m horizontally beyond the boundary of zone l.

 

[Spark123]

I tend to agree that if you are adding/altering a circuit in a bathroom that your addition/alteration needs to be to the 17th edn regs for you to sign it off therefore needs to be on an RCD.
If there are existing circuits which are not RCD protected then supplementary bonding needs to be in place.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS must have a different version of 17th to me. Under 701.411.3.3 it states clearly "All circuits" that's the 7th and 8th word in regulation.

I have the same version, and mine says that too.

But you are not required to bring existing circuits up to current standards - you never have been - it's always been that way.

So if YOU didn't install the CIRCUIT when the 17th was in force then YOU do not have to make the CIRCUIT comply with the 17th.

The work that YOU do has to comply with the regulations which apply to THAT WORK.

A cable connecting a fan to a lighting circuit is not a circuit itself, and therefore the regulations concerning CIRCUITS in bathrooms don't apply to it.

I tend to agree that if you are adding/altering a circuit in a bathroom that your addition/alteration needs to be to the 17th edn regs for you to sign it off therefore needs to be on an RCD.

Your addition/alteration needs to comply with the regulations which apply to YOUR ADDITION/ALTERATION.

If your addition/alteration is not a CIRCUIT then the regulations for CIRCUITS don't apply to it.

 

[Spark123]

My addition or alteration is still part of a circuit tho