30Kw Heat Only Boiler

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I am having my boiler changed from an Ideal Mexico 2 boiler (which apparently was 36Kw)

I was told that a 30Kw heat only boiler is the minimum size I need because

a) The boiler is in an out house
b) I have a one pipe system so need red hot water on the flow which will come back cold

Is this correct because I also read on this forum not to oversize my boiler and an 18Kw is more than enough - Its a 4 bed detached house if that helps about 200 square metres
 
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Neither of those points are relevant to boiler sizing. A proper heat loss calculation needs to be carried out on your home and that will inform the boiler size required. You almost certainly don't need 30kW
 
Neither of those points are relevant to boiler sizing. A proper heat loss calculation needs to be carried out on your home and that will inform the boiler size required. You almost certainly don't need 30kW
I'd imagine they need to calculate the heat loss from the flow and return pipes though, if that's in 2 inch could be pretty significant depending on the run/lagging.
 
Thank you - Heat loss calcs are being obtained

1) I also have many single glazed wood windows


Would the one pipe system not kean towards a much higher boiler ouput?
The intergas heat only can be range rated all the way down apparently so a 30Kw can act as a lower boiler if needed

If I dont need a 30Kw then what wort of house would require one?
 
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Your current gas usage (in kWh) might also give a rough indication of your requirements. I can see every day how much gas I am using.
 
I had two 24+18kw old boilers serving two separate zones in my house.
All single glazed windows, poor insulation no cavity walls.
I plugged all draughts and holes. I carried out HL calculation and it turned out I need 12kw for 4 beds, a huge lounge (600sq.ft), 3 baths.
Installed 13 kw Viessmann heat only boiler outside my home; weather proofed the boiler by building a wooden box around it.
In this heating season, from 20th Dec to 10th Mar, heating was on from 0800 - 2100 hrs mostly since my dad and wife are vulnerable to cold.
Installed thermostat with new setup (old setup didn't have room stat). The house was comfortable, gas usage came down to 40% from last heating season.
I have bought a weather compensation sensor for viessmann and will install it next heating season to see if it saves any gas as advertised.
 

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Thank you - Heat loss calcs are being obtained

1) I also have many single glazed wood windows


Would the one pipe system not kean towards a much higher boiler ouput?
The intergas heat only can be range rated all the way down apparently so a 30Kw can act as a lower boiler if needed

If I dont need a 30Kw then what wort of house would require one?
No. The output of boiler you require is related to the heat loss of your home, not the type of system it is connected to. Get a full heat loss calculation done and go from there.

And yes, a 30kW Intergas can be range rated at max per but the minimum output (which is where you get your efficiency) is much higher on the 30kW than it is on the 18kW. You can't adjust the minimum.
 
I had two 24+18kw old boilers serving two separate zones in my house.
All single glazed windows, poor insulation no cavity walls.
I plugged all draughts and holes. I carried out HL calculation and it turned out I need 12kw for 4 beds, a huge lounge (600sq.ft), 3 baths.
Installed 13 kw Viessmann heat only boiler outside my home; weather proofed the boiler by building a wooden box around it.
In this heating season, from 20th Dec to 10th Mar, heating was on from 0800 - 2100 hrs mostly since my dad and wife are vulnerable to cold.
Installed thermostat with new setup (old setup didn't have room stat). The house was comfortable, gas usage came down to 40% from last heating season.
I have bought a weather compensation sensor for viessmann and will install it next heating season to see if it saves any gas as advertised.
I would be keen to understand more about this - Are you saying that a 13Kw heat boiler is good for your house of 4 beds and three bathroom which is poorly insulated? Did you repipe the house or just boiler change?

This souonds like my house with a boiler in outhouse but the only difference is I have a one pipe system

Are you happy with performance?

And what sort of property would need a 30Kw heat only boiler if what you say is correct?
 
I would be keen to understand more about this - Are you saying that a 13Kw heat boiler is good for your house of 4 beds and three bathroom which is poorly insulated? Did you repipe the house or just boiler change?

This souonds like my house with a boiler in outhouse but the only difference is I have a one pipe system

Are you happy with performance?

And what sort of property would need a 30Kw heat only boiler if what you say is correct?
One pipe system. Do you know how it works?

Two pipe system. There is a flow pipe that takes the heat from the boiler to the radiators and return pipe takes the water that has given up heat in the radiators to the boiler to be reheated and pushed back out into the flow pipe. The radiators straddle the flow and return pipes. The flow pipe run starts at the boiler and ends at the last radiator and return starts at the first radiator to finish at the boiler. The pump is the driving force that aids water circulation in the radiators.

In one pipe system heated water is circulated around the single 2” pipe loop. The radiators straddle the single pipe. For better circulation through the radiator, flow pipe often is connected to top connection and return to opposite lower tapping. The radiator circulation is by gravity ie hot water rises into the radiator and cooled water joins the water circulating in the 2” pipe. Pipes to the radiator may even be 3/4” or more

Assume first radiator takes 80 degree system water. 80 degree system water is also flowing in the 50mm pipe
Water flowing out of the radiator will have cooled a little due to heat emitted by the radiator.
This cooled water will temper the water in the 50 mm pipe.
Second radiator will then be fed with this tempered water and also be a contributing factor to water flow in 50 mm pipe
Each radiator does this

Radiators may be size compensated to reflect on different water inlet temperature

Fact that you are not altering the system, just the boiler, operation does not change
Oversizing the boiler or running it full pelt, boiler will not condense so efficiency will be poor
As previously said, suggested output seems excessive
Insulate the pipes under ( ground) floor if you can

When you run the present boiler, does the burner stay on for the duration of operation? If it keeps switching off, then downsizing will be prudent
 
I put this together for someone with a one pipe 7 rad system to give them some idea of the rad balancing required to give ~ the same rad outputs. Even if theoretical, I think it shows that the dT through the whole system is only 7C and results in a very high boiler return temp at full rad(s) output, if required.

1713684431290.png
 
Interesting discussion, I would have thought boiler and radiator size is related to recovery speed rather than heat loss? I am no heating engineer, only an electrical engineer, but what I want to do is only heat a room as and when required, and I would like to do that in less than an hour.

What can be debated is how many rooms need to be re-heated at the same time, with a 2 up 2 down likely ½ the house, but with 14 rooms, likely a lot less. But having a 20 kW boiler will not re-heat a room any faster to a 10 kW boiler if the radiator can only deliver 8 kW, simple maths. So for a 20 kW boiler likely we need 60 kW of radiators to actually be able to re-heat areas of the home using the maximum boiler output.

With my old oil boiler easy, I can hear it start/stop, and know when running it produces 20 kW, but this was not so cut and dried with my mothers house, as the boiler could modulate. I did look for some thing to tell me the output, but could not find any meter or other device which would show me what at any point of time the output was, so when running it was some where between 8 kW and 28 kW which is a huge variation.

In the main we lived in the living room, hence the name, and we did not need to heat other rooms, but the living room radiator was less than 8 kW, so to heat one room the boiler would need to cycle. If we also heated the kitchen and hall then the boiler could modulate.

I had no trust in the installers, as they fitted a power shower on a combi boiler, which breaks the local laws, and used a wall thermostat which used a mark/space ratio to stop hysteresis, which would stop the boiler modulating as it should. And failed to put a TRV in the hall, so impossible to get fast recovery when front door opened, without it also turning off the wall thermostat before rest of house warm. Simply fitting a TRV in hall transformed the homes heating. (Once set up)

I would have thought the one pipe system is ideally suited to fan assisted radiators, where there is no restriction to flow through the radiators, but using TRV's the pipe lagging and radiator by-pass pipe size becomes critical, I remember at school how the rooms on the return leg were always cold, clearly rooms near the supply side will recover first, but back in the 50's no pipes were lagged.

I know at work it does not seem to matter if close to boiler (engine) or the last carriage, they all get warm once steam is allowed to flow through the heaters, that is clearly a real one pipe system, and a real boiler, i.e. it produces steam, and last carriage the steam is allowed to exist into the atmosphere giving a really good ambiance with all carriages surrounded with steam, but this one pipe system is clearly not what is referred to with domestic heating.

So
Assume first radiator takes 80 degree system water.
No the first radiator would be 130ºC of steam, super heated, this can be seen as steam not visible until cooled to 100ºC. But I am being pedantic however all this heat loss calculation is pointless, as it is recovery time which is important.
 
Are you saying that a 13Kw heat boiler is good for your house of 4 beds and three bathroom which is poorly insulated?
Yes. This is what I have put; a 13kw heat only boiler (Viessmann vitodens 100-w).
I have a two pipe system.
I didn't change any pipework, its an open vent system.
All single glazed windows. I had to change a couple of radiators upstairs since old ones were single panel and were inadequate for colder rooms.
I insalled it before winters and these winters were very comfortable; on pocket as well as heating inside the home.
As I have said earlier, I wanted to install it in a balcony under the shade and was advised to weatherproof it which I did. I can share pics if you like and the heatloss calculations that I did for room by room on an excel sheet.
 
Yes. This is what I have put; a 13kw heat only boiler (Viessmann vitodens 100-w).
I have a two pipe system.
I didn't change any pipework, its an open vent system.
All single glazed windows. I had to change a couple of radiators upstairs since old ones were single panel and were inadequate for colder rooms.
I insalled it before winters and these winters were very comfortable; on pocket as well as heating inside the home.
As I have said earlier, I wanted to install it in a balcony under the shade and was advised to weatherproof it which I did. I can share pics if you like and the heatloss calculations that I did for room by room on an excel sheet.
Thank you - can I ask what type of property would require a 30KW open vent boiler in that case? Manufacturesr clearly make them so who is buying them

Here is what the engineer who visited a long time ago on a paid visit wrote

"The existing boiler has a maximum heat input rating of 45Kw. Useable heat output at maximum supposed to be 125,000btu’s or 36.6kw. Efficiency has been affected by ageing.

The boiler appears to have been de-rated as I measured the gas input rate at 40.66kw suggesting the useable heat output is more likely to be around 30kw.

Without calculating heat losses I estimate that a boiler with at least 40kw output is needed.

The only good quality non-commercial high output heat only boiler range is the Worcester Bosch 8000 Life Regular with outputs of 40kw, 45kw and 50kw.


"
 
Manufacturesr clearly make them so who is buying them

A lot of people are having boilers fitted which are too big.

If you can look at your daily gas usage over the winter, on cold days, it might give you a very rough idea of what you require. For instance I can see that, on the coldest day, I used about 220kWh of gas. But I've been told I need a 30kW boiler by one installer. And my current boiler is only about 65%-70% efficient.
 

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