80s amps

[meadowhog]

I have an old pioneer SA 520 hooked up to one and sometimes 2 pairs of IFM CM2A speakers in a 16' square high ceiling cinema room. I have the luxury of turning it up to 11 without disturbing the wife or kids or neighbours however I'm thinking of upgrading but need help on what to go for for. I've had Technics gear in the past which sounded pants by comparison and recently bought a new Yamaha receiver which I now regret as that sounds empty and I longed for the warm mid and higher but not harsh treble and tighter bass, a more complete and real sound. I've reconnected my pioneer and use that instead of the 5.1 for watching films as the new digital Yamaha is not a patch on the 1980s pioneer.

I'm missing 5.1 and some sound effects but watching Coldplay live on a 10' screen in stereo with concert sound levels can't be beat with my old pioneer I bought new 34 years ago. Can someone suggest an amp that will drive quality 100amp 8 ohm speakers and do them justice in a 5.1 and or a stereo arena. I could go the 5.1 speaker root and have a stand alone stereo system. Old and second hand not a problem.

 

[deadshort]

You need to buy with your ears! Which is becoming very difficult these days, as there a few specialist audio shops left.

I have a 1980's Leak amp which sounds amazing


cheers,

DS

 

[Lucid]

There's a couple of main reasons why you're struggling with the new AV amp.

First, the nature of Hi-Fi amps and AV amps/receivers is different and that affects the way they produce sound. Hi-Fi amps are simpler devices. A good Hi-Fi amp will generally use a toroidal transformer (it looks like a donut) and large capacitors which means it is capable of delivering a lot of current if the speaker demands. The power rating is conservative too; often 30-40W and measured at full frequency range, both channels driven and very low distortion (0.01% or lower THD). AV receivers are sold partly on wattage per £. A rating of 80-100W/ch is fairly common, and gives an extrapolated power figure of 400+W in 5.1 but that's just marketing BS. The power transformer isn't nearly as high quality and the capacitors are often much smaller. The power rating is measured at 1kHz tone, single channel driven and often at 0.1 or even 1% THD. The result is that the power figures are unrealistic and the amp can't deliver current in the same way. Your Pioneer sits somewhere between the two designs. It probably uses a cheaper laminated core transformer but reasonably sized capacitors. That's fairly common in Pioneer amps, so I'm guessing it will be the same with yours.

From what I can gather, the Pioneer SA 520 was sold as part of a stack system as well as a standalone amp. The going price back in the early 80's was around the £120-£150 mark for the amp. That's the equivalent of around £450 in today's money. One wouldn't need to spend as much to get similar performance in a Hi-Fi amp today; thanks to falling production costs then £200-£250 would be sufficient.

Second, a Hi-Fi amp is an all analogue affair. AV receivers are full of digital switching components, video circuits and digital audio processing. The inside is flooded with digital switching noise.

So, in an AV amp/receiver a lack of power reserve affects bass tightness and midrange depth, while digital switching noise has a slight sharpening effect on treble. The better your speakers then the more those traits will be revealed. IMF (if that's what your speakers are) became TDL, and TDL is a respected speaker manufacturer making some very nice product that's more than capable of picking apart the inadequacies of under-performing gear.

Overcoming those limitations in an AV amp takes money; pure and simple. A good-sized transformer coupled with decent power reserve capacitors is what's required. Couple that with high build standards that optimise circuit layout to reduce internal interference from switching noise and you have a solution. The rub is the cost. For a new receiver you won't get much change from £1500 for this kind of quality. Even then, it won't be Hi-Fi grade but they should cope well with your IMFs.

The other solution is a pre/power combo: That is a AV processor separate from a power amp. In the main, AV processors are high-end devices, so there's a certain level of engineering performance that far surpasses what you'd find in anything but the top-end integrated units. Standalone power amps also tend to be built for performance and audio quality rather than on price.

There's a reasonable selection of older pre-HDMI secondhand AV pre-amps available. Brands to look at are Arcam, Tag, Meridian, and the later generation Lexicons although they are still quite pricey. Power amps are slightly more tricky. A good 5 channel power amp would have been the thick end of £1000 and they hold their value well. If you're interested in pre/power then drop me a line in a private message and I'll point you towards some decent combos available right now. For s/h pre-HDMI integrated AV receivers, have a look for Arcam AVR 350.

 

[Ricardus]

I had a very similar issue.
My Hi-Fi ran (runs, when I put it all back together) a Rotel 820BX amp and a pair of Castle speakers - sound quality is pretty damn good for a 'budget' system.
When I went to upgrade to an AV amp I bought largely on spec and got a Marantz SR5300, hooking it up to my existing Castle's as front L/R, a pair of Eltax bipolar rears, Morduant Short front centre speaker and a 15" Eltax powered sub. Movies were awesome - I never forget watching LotR after setting it all up correctly and when the camera zoomed in on the eye of Sauron the bass nearly lifted me from my chair

Music however, just wasn't up to snuff. The £150 Rotel was just light years better than the Marantz for hi-fi reproduction.

My solution was to buy a speaker switch box and a couple of metres of extra cable, and switch the front speakers between the Rotel for hi-fi and Marantz for AV.

 

[meadowhog]

Thanks Lucid, that has to be the best description of what the problem is and what needs to be considered.

I've looked at the suggestions you made and feel the right thing to do is get an Arcam 300 or 350 and sell the Yamaha. 3D doesn't really do it for me so won't miss some of those gadgets.

If that doesn't do it then Ricardus solution works for me. The 300 and up have pre outs so should all work nicely but I may have to make some sacrifice if the lip sink is out.

Cheers guys, you made that simple.

 

[Lucid]

First, I'd go with the 350 over the older 300 that it replaced. The newer model has later technology filtered down from the higher-end processor-only Arcams, it sounds better, and (here's the big thing) the difference in second-hand pricing isn't enough to persuade me to give up those things for the saving of £50-£80.

Second, it's interesting you mention pre-outs. That takes us in a slightly different direction, but one that bridges the Hi-Fi and AV worlds better than any other solution.

Hi-Fi amps are the best at doing music. I'd argue that you could improve quite substantially on the Pioneer with a NAD 3020 / Rotel RA820 / Creek CAS4040 which were the "British Hi-Fi scene" competitors at the time the Pioneer was new. Of those three the NAD probably has the biggest bass punch, but that's going in to too much detail. The point is that if you want to do music properly from a source using analogue connections then a 2ch Hi-Fi amp is the right tool for the job. So, with this in mind, the next question is "How to add AV and digital audio decoding without wrecking 2ch music?"

The answer is actually quite simple; and it doesn't involve speaker switches.

Any AV Receiver with Pre-Outs can be used to drive an external power amp. But what is a "power amp" really? It's the muscle side of an integrated amp. It's basically an integrated amp without a volume control. So what's stopping you running a Hi-Fi amp to power the front L&R speakers for anything that's 2ch music, and using the same amp as a power amp for front L&R when running in surround mode. IOW, the AV receiver only ever powers the centre and surround speakers.

The AV receiver pre-outs for front L&R go to a line input on the Hi-Fi amp. When doing surround, the Hi-Fi amp is switched to that line input and the volume is set to a predetermined point on the dial. (That point is part of the initial set-up procedure. Once set, then as long as the dial is turned to the same set point then that's all that is required of the Hi-Fi amp.) The AV receiver then does its thing with the digital sources or anything that requires ProLogic decoding. The AV receiver's own power amp runs the centre and surrounds. The Hi-Fi amp powers the front L&R speakers. The AV receiver provides source switching, decoding and volume control of itself and the Hi-Fi amp now acting as just a power amp. When it's time to go back to music in 2ch mode then the AV receiver is switched off. It never contaminates the 2 channel side of the system.

I have a couple of systems. The one in the lounge runs exactly like this. I have a Yamaha 765 AV receiver running in to a Creek CAS4040 Hi-Fi amp. Both are on for AV, but only the Creek needs to be on for music. It's the best of both worlds with none of the compromises of either.

 

[Ricardus]

*Disclaimer - I haven't had my morning coffee yet. My brain is running at low capacity*

But if you're using the AV amp Pre-Outs to supply the Line-In for the Hi-Fi amp, aren't you therefore using the Pre-Amp section from the AV Amp rather than the (probably far superior) Pre-Amp section of the Hi-Fi amp?

Or does the AV Amp act solely as a source switch?

 

[meadowhog]

I'm not sure I thought it would be straight through but I've hooked up the DVD audio out to the Hi Fi amp while keeping the HDMI from DVD to AVR, instantly sounds better. There's just a lag from AV amp I need to play with to get the lip sink right. This will mean playing with two volume controls at all levels. I still need to play with the AVR audio out when I have moment.

I was already thinking along the lines of a HIFI upgrade to the Arcam Alpha 9. Looks like you're reading my mind!

 

[GoodDIYjob]

*Disclaimer - I haven't had my morning coffee yet. My brain is running at low capacity*

But if you're using the AV amp Pre-Outs to supply the Line-In for the Hi-Fi amp, aren't you therefore using the Pre-Amp section from the AV Amp rather than the (probably far superior) Pre-Amp section of the Hi-Fi amp?

Or does the AV Amp act solely as a source switch?

If running into an integrated amp as shown your running two preamps in series when using the av amp with its sources. Hence why you need to set the volume level on the integrated amp at a predetermined level based on balancing.

When using sources direct to the integrated amp, it would bypass av preamp and processing and use only the integrated amps pre amp ( and output stage amps).