a radial, a ring, it's a kitchen thing!

[davy_owen_88]

Load of piffle. If there is a double socket it's there to be used. If it can't handle the load it shouldn't be there.

It's like saying your car brakes are good on small hills but not big ones.

Umm no. You expecting the whole country to change its regulations because you can't understand that some things have limits is piffle.

If your car came with brakes that said they were only suitable for small hills and you used them on a big hill that's your problem. You should have used a car that was suitable.

Sorry if you expect everyone to change just because you don't like the way things are done.

 

[JohnD]

There are other limits as well.

For example, I might have 28 double sockets, and 10 singles, in my house, with three rings and two radials. That's quite convenient. But if I tried to plug in 66 3kW loads, I would soon trip the MCBs.

It is a characteristic of the wonderful UK fused plug system that we can have plenty of sockets to cater for all reasonable arrangements of our appliances, each appliance can be protected by an appropriate fuse, and the circuits work well under typical loading patterns. However, it is possible to overload them. Usually this will be apparent by the tripping of protective devices, or (less favourably) hot smells which should prompt us to seek help.

An overloaded double socket will usually display its pain by becoming discoloured, smelling hot, the switch perhaps failing to work, before it starts to smoke.

 

[joe-90]

Load of piffle. If there is a double socket it's there to be used. If it can't handle the load it shouldn't be there.

It's like saying your car brakes are good on small hills but not big ones.

Umm no. You expecting the whole country to change its regulations because you can't understand that some things have limits is piffle.

If your car came with brakes that said they were only suitable for small hills and you used them on a big hill that's your problem. You should have used a car that was suitable.

Sorry if you expect everyone to change just because you don't like the way things are done.

No mate. A car with bad brakes wouldn't be on the market - there'd be a recall. A socket that overheats wouldn't be on the market - they'd change the rules. Live with it and welcome to the real world.

 

[joe-90]

There are other limits as well.



An overloaded double socket will usually display its pain by becoming discoloured, smelling hot, the switch perhaps failing to work, before it starts to smoke.

John. This year 100s of 1000s of houses will be built with double sockets for the weasher, drier, cooker etc in the kitchen - they won't catch fire or burn.

The reason that sockets burn is that the contacts are worn and arcing occurs.

Please explain how a solid brass bus-bar can overheat yet flimsy wire does not. The answer is (of course) in poor contacts. Normally this is when sockets are kitted up with piggy back plugs and hang half out of the socket.

If I'm wrong - then show me the math; I will understand what you are saying.

 

[securespark]

Thanks for that John. I assumed it was just arcing that caused that problem, guess I was wrong huh?

Load of piffle. If there is a double socket it's there to be used. If it can't handle the load it shouldn't be there.

It's like saying your car brakes are good on small hills but not big ones.

You seem to contradict yourself here.

You have haughtily claimed in previous threads how much more knowledgable you are than some on here because you have your 16th Edition. Then you claimed it dated back to the mid 90's.

You may have some knowledge of electricity & the regs (albeit out of date), but you have very little understanding elsewhere.

A 13A accessory is just that. Whether it has one outlet, two or three.

And trying to pull in excess of 13A will eventually cause a breakdown of that accessory. Your comment about the copper being thick enough to take the load? Yes, very smart of you to play the "It's science that matters - not regs" card, but the simple truth is you are forgetting one very simple rule - The contact between the pins of the plug and the socket itself are only rated to 13A. Not that they have to be poor, as you state, but they are only rated for that load. Remember that the higher the current, the more important to have nice tight connections. They just can't take the load, and were never designed to.

Does that mean a 20A switch should happily accept a load of 45A?

Here is a double socket a colleague changed the other day:

It had been subject to around 23A of load.

And here is the rear of that socket, stating the maximum load:

 

[joe-90]

What was the rating of the plug fuse in the burned socket? And where does the heat actually manifest itself? (arcing by any chance?)

 

[davy_owen_88]

No mate. A car with bad brakes wouldn't be on the market - there'd be a recall. A socket that overheats wouldn't be on the market - they'd change the rules. Live with it and welcome to the real world.

I'm really trying hard not to be rude, but f**king hell your real world is ludicrous!

The hypothetical point I made about car brakes was that if you take something past its spec. it's not going to perform as it would when run within its spec. You can't expect the spec. on everything to be increased just because some idiot doesn't want to stick to them.

In your crazy 'real-world' scenario every double socket should be manufactured to carry 26A, which means every circuit should be able to carry 26A for every socket installed within. So that's 1 socket per 2.5m^2 ring circuit. There's your 'real-world'... totally idiotic!

 

[securespark]

The load on the socket far exceeded 13A, but each plug was a maximum of 13A.

So you agree that even though the csa of the socket internals may be up to the job of carrying in excess of 13A, the point of connection between load & supply is not?

That is because that union was only ever designed to carry 13A, no more.

Sometimes you get burnt-out plug tops & sockets because of a loose connection between plug pin & appliance conductor, or socket terminal & supply cable, but very often it down to purly overload with no arcing involved.

Why don't you show us the math(s) of your theory? I'll try to understand it, if you go slowly.

 

[joe-90]

Oh dear, getting all hot and bothered are we? Take a 13 amp fuse and crack it open. Take a look at the thickness of the wire.

Crack open a socket and look at the bus-bar.

Which of those will handle the heavier current?

 

[joe-90]

That is because that union was only ever designed to carry 13A, no more.

And that is all it DOES carry or the 13 amp fuse in the plug will blow.

Thanks for defeating your own argument.

 

[securespark]

I have not defeated my own argument! And I am not getting all hot and bothered! I stopped doing that a long time ago. You know a whole lot less about this game than you let on, and then you try and hoodwink others into thinking otherwise!

Sockets can be subject to current in excess of 13A, right?

But they are not designed for it. The union between load & socket is not designed for heavier current.

Why does your argument not hold water when applied to other accessories?

Tell me why a 6A switch cannot carry 32A.

 

[joe-90]

I'm sure that you are all wrong. The double socket must be rated 13 amps PER SOCKET.

If you were a design engineer you would say - "Two plugs, each fused at 13 amps. Design socket to accept both. Write on back of socket '13 amp load'. If either socket is overloaded then fuse in plug will blow and socket will be protected.

Let's face it - if they wrote 26 amp load on the back then that is a direct offer to plug something in one of the sockets that far exceeded that socket's rating.

 

[joe-90]

Sockets can be subject to current in excess of 13A, right?

How? 13 amp fuse is the maximum allowed isn't it?

 

[joe-90]

While I think about it, why do those triple piggy-back plugs have an inbuilt 13 amp fuse? So the combined load doesn't exceed the socket rating that it's plugged into. If it does - then the fuse pops and the socket is protected.

Have you never heard the term 'FAIL-SAFE'? Well that's what the system is designed to do.

Good heavens, why doesn't a forum of electricians know that?

 

[dingbat]

joe-90, you appear to be a bit of a cock.