A sad state of affairs...

[ellal]

When a so called democratic country puts forward a bill that allows undercover agents or cops to legally carry out crimes...

The House of Lords has just had to put two amendments to the bill because the government refused to 'create a list of forbidden offences'

Now what are those activities that the Lords say should be on a 'list of forbidden offences'?

Firstly using children in criminal activities...

“In every other interaction with the criminal justice system we try to remove children from criminal activity, to take them away from harm and towards safety
But before us is legislation which formalises our ability to do the opposite.”

Secondly is a rather more serious list of crimes that the government seems perfectly acceptable and is...

"an amendment which proposed explicitly banning those acting undercover from being allowed to participate in a list of serious crimes, including murder, torture, rape or other sexual offences as they gained information."

Anyone who believes that murder, torture, rape etc should be allowed to be legally carried out (and by default that means in secret and unaccountable for) should realise that the UK will finally become simply yet another facist state!

 

[sxturbo]

isnt the reason these bills are scrutinised before being implemented because we are democratic?

for me at least this thread is a bit pointless,

regardless of what bill was put in front of them, the fact remains we have the correct checks and balances in the system that picks up on these details and holds whoever to account, and implements the required changes, your post demonstrates the system works.

in other news where democracy is truly under threat, have a look at Uganda....

 

[ellal]

isnt the reason these bills are scrutinised before being implemented because we are democratic?

for me at least this thread is a bit pointless,

regardless of what bill was put in front of them, the fact remains we have the correct checks and balances in the system that picks up on these details and holds whoever to account, and implements the required changes, your post demonstrates the system works.

in other news where democracy is truly under threat, have a look at Uganda....

The 'checks and balances' don't really exist because the second chamber can always be overruled...

Amendments are only proposed and can removed by the commons as and when they wish...

 

[SirGalahad]

isnt the reason these bills are scrutinised before being implemented because we are democratic?

for me at least this thread is a bit pointless,

regardless of what bill was put in front of them, the fact remains we have the correct checks and balances in the system that picks up on these details and holds whoever to account, and implements the required changes, your post demonstrates the system works.

in other news where democracy is truly under threat, have a look at Uganda....

In theory that's great but in practice not so much. The Tories have a stonking 80 seat majority so can push through any legislation they want, they will remove those amendments and get it passed.

This poor bill leaves it open to use childrent to spy on their parents - no western democracy should countenance such measures - perhaps it may sound condescending but I think we are better than that.

Ontop our system of Government relies on tradition and conventions and Bojo has repeatedly shown he doesn't respect those. With the increasing politicising of the Judiciary we will be left with weaker checks and balances.

In the US some states passed ridiculous anti-protest laws in response to the BLM protests - these new laws were unecessary. People will now be watching how they use these laws against the Trumpers who attacked the Capitol building.

 

[sxturbo]

are the lords amendments to be debated in the commons?

i agree this law shouldn't give anyone carte blanche on crime.

 

[ajohn]

Parliament has threatened to disband the house of lords at times if they don't "play ball". Given how people get into it politics raises it's head any way.

To be honest I wonder about it's worth. In some respects it's no different to when it was the home of the landed gentry. These days in many cases they tend to own something else and it isn't elected. Politics can figure heavily in selection. Parties want their people in it.

 

[ellal]

our system of Government relies on tradition and conventions and Bojo has repeatedly shown he doesn't respect those.

Not just him but all PM's and most politicians...

Simply because the UK has no written constitution...

And the political elite are very happy to keep it that way!

 

[Deleted member 18243]

The police, and the public, have always been allowed to commit (what normally would be ) criminal acts, when those acts are in the prevention of a greater crime.

For instance, if I heard a murder being committed in the house next door, I could legitimately break into that house to stop the murder; murder being a greater crime than housebreaking.

As usual, no new laws are needed.

 

[Deleted member 18243]

the Trumpers who attacked the Capitol building.

It looks like BLM and Antifa types attacked the Capitol building, making it look like it was Trump's doing.

 

[fillyboy]

This poor bill leaves it open to use childrent to spy on their parents - no western democracy should countenance such measures - perhaps it may sound condescending but I think we are better than that.

"'Down with Big Brother!' Yes, I said that! Said it over and over again, it seems. Between you and me, old man, I'm glad they got me before it went any further. Do you know what I'm going to say to them when I go up before the tribunal? 'Thank you,' I'm going to say, 'thank you for saving me before it was too late.'"

"Who denounced you?" said Winston.

"It was my little daughter," said Parsons with a sort of doleful pride. "She listened at the keyhole. Heard what I was saying, and nipped off to the patrols the very next day. Pretty smart for a nipper of seven, eh? I don't bear her any grudge for it. In fact I'm proud of her. It shows I brought her up in the right spirit, anyway."

 

[SirGalahad]

It looks like BLM and Antifa types attacked the Capitol building, making it look like it was Trump's doing.

You need help.

 

[SirGalahad]

"'Down with Big Brother!' Yes, I said that! Said it over and over again, it seems. Between you and me, old man, I'm glad they got me before it went any further. Do you know what I'm going to say to them when I go up before the tribunal? 'Thank you,' I'm going to say, 'thank you for saving me before it was too late.'"

"Who denounced you?" said Winston.

"It was my little daughter," said Parsons with a sort of doleful pride. "She listened at the keyhole. Heard what I was saying, and nipped off to the patrols the very next day. Pretty smart for a nipper of seven, eh? I don't bear her any grudge for it. In fact I'm proud of her. It shows I brought her up in the right spirit, anyway."

You for the bill?
This is harking back to the worst days in 1930s Germany. Why do we need such legislation?

 

[fillyboy]

You for the bill?

Haven't read it yet, been a bit busy.

 

[Mottie]

Anyone who believes that murder, torture, rape etc should be allowed to be legally carried out (and by default that means in secret and unaccountable for) should realise that the UK will finally become simply yet another facist state!

If you had the opportunity to torture the mastermind of the 911 or 7/7 London bombings including the option of inflicting rape or murder on people they loved to get information that would have prevented those atrocities and saved many innocent lives including the war that sprung from one of them, would you have taken it? Serious question so not expecting an answer.

 

[SirGalahad]

If you had the opportunity to torture the mastermind of the 911 or 7/7 London bombings including the option of inflicting rape or murder on people they loved to get information that would have prevented those atrocities and saved many innocent lives including the war that sprung from one of them, would you have taken it? Serious question so not expecting an answer.

That old tired rubric of torture. Say you capture someone and put a gun to the head of their child and threaten to kill them, say he talks and tells the truth. The next time the terrorists will be wise to these tactics so they will plan accordingly. Then what?

You for or against the intelligence bill where your kids will be able to spy on you for 22 UK agencies including god old HMRC. Imagine your young kids being informants on what you spend when you go out or on holiday.

I wonder where we have seen that in the past.