Accessibility

[dingbat]

A lively discussion ensued the other night on my Test & Inspection course. Are junction boxes under floorboards considered to be accessible? One faction said no, not ever, not even if they are beneath an easily removed, single joist-span of board, suitably labelled. The opposing faction said of course they were accessible, even under carpet etc. (Although we all agreed that laminate flooring - 'the stone-cladding of the noughties' - put them firmly out of reach.)

Any opinions?

(Obviously the answer is not to use 'em, but we do live in the real world.)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

accessible a. able to be reached, entered, influenced or understood.

 

[dingbat]

Good answer ban, but do you have an opinion one way or another?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yup.

If you can reach it, it is accessible. No requirement IMO for accessible to mean "accessible without having to move anything"

 

[securespark]

I'm with ban here. If you can access it, it is accessible. Without having to destroy the fabric of the house to do so, that is.

If you can access a junction by lifting furniture a carpet & boards, then it is accessible. If you have to hack holes in plaster/board, concrete, tarmac etcetera, then it is not.

 

[dingbat]

Thanks for that - I tend to agree. But what sparked it all off was the insistence of the lecturer (NICEIC approved) that under-floor JBs have recently become considered inaccessible. Any NIC-approved bods out there of the same opinion?

 

[plugwash]

the other problem is that people are more and more often putting down floow coverings in domestic premisis that cannot be lifted and put back like carpet and cussioned vinal can

kind of like the fact they had to ban putting 2 singles on unfused spurs becuase they were frewuntly getting swapped for doubles

 

[il78]

I believe accessible (for JBs) to mean installed within the mains cupboard, easy access within loft areas etc....under the floor boards I consider not to be accessible, as a tool of some-sort is required.

The other trouble with JBs used under floorboards is that your relying on the spark to make notes on where they have used them.....yes, as if.....

Regulation Hat On - Dont use them under floorboards....

Regulation Hat Off - Happy days, joint away......

These are of course my opinions, and I'm sure some-one on here will totally disagree.........

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thanks for that - I tend to agree. But what sparked it all off was the insistence of the lecturer (NICEIC approved) that under-floor JBs have recently become considered inaccessible.

Become considered by whom?

You can't decide to ban any wiring practice that complies today just because somebody might do something in the future that makes it non-compliant.

Why not suggest to your lecturer that NICEIC should start to fail installations where non IPx4 light fittings are used in separate WCs in case some future occupant knocks the toilet and bathroom into one?

And while we're at it, maybe they should mandate 30mA RCD for all bedroom sockets, and no switch or socket closer than 1.6m and 3.4m respectively from any corner in case someone puts in a shower cubicle.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I believe accessible (for JBs) to mean installed within the mains cupboard, easy access within loft areas etc....under the floor boards I consider not to be accessible, as a tool of some-sort is required

You are free to believe and consider what you like, but unless the wiring regulations define the word "accessible" to include "tool free" then the only meaning that can be legitimately construed is that in the dictionary.

What is the actual wording of the regulation(s)?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

IRegulation Hat Off - Happy days, joint away.

And the more joints, the happier the day gets

 

[securespark]

Anybody reading this - please note - the fewer the joints the better, beit cable, pipe or mar*****. OOPS, no thats a case of " the more joints the better".......

 

[il78]

Thanks for that - I tend to agree. But what sparked it all off was the insistence of the lecturer (NICEIC approved) that under-floor JBs have recently become considered inaccessible. Any NIC-approved bods out there of the same opinion?

I dont think its a case of "recently" become inaccessible, from the moment they are or when installed under the floorboards they become inaccessible......as I said above your relying on some DIYer or spark to make future sparks / DIYers know where they are, and lets be honest, it dont happen......

Sparks seem to forget what a nightmare job it is trying to find a fault caused due a poorly installed JB under floorboards and what a pain in the donkey it can be for the customer, extra costs, possibility of ruined decoration..........

Perfect example within the last couple of weeks, carrying out remedial works following inspection. One of the defects was no circuit continuity to the CPC on the lighting circuit, the electrician traced the fault back to the kitchen light fitting, loop in method for the rest of the lights apart from kitchen, just the one 1.5mm.....removed some of the nice newly plastered ceiling.....oh yes a JB with the earths not connected, just because some lazy git couldn't be donkey'd to connect them.....granted this was there fault and could of been avoided, but this happens....everyday I see something that questions the ability of DIYers and sparks, and if something this simple can be avoided.....well I'm out of a job...

On that note.....keep up the bad work...

And before some-one jumps on me, I dont consider myself as super-spark, just a safe one.....now I need a hand off this soap-box....

 

[dingbat]

Some good points all round. Interesting that 'requiring the use of a tool' counts as inaccessible to some because that was the point made by the lecturer. Thing is, a screwed-down floorboard may be more easily accessible than a loft location in some properties... and less awkward than some cupboard locations.

AFAIK there is no definition of accessible in the regs and I'm inclined to go with ban and secure, use the dictionary definition of accessibility and regard the 'use of a tool' as being an obstacle, not a prohibition. As for marking or noting where JBs have been used, I always mark boards lifted to say what is beneath them - maybe this would be easier to define in the regs than what is meant by 'accessibility'. That is; junction boxes should be accessible and their locations noted - marked on a floor plan, for instance.

I absolutely agree that the fewer joints the better, but as I said before we have to live in the real world. I agree also with ban's point about future-proofing. It ain't practical.

Oh, and it was "recently become considered inaccessible" in that my lecturer was saying that until recently under-floor JB's were considered to be okay but now they're not. (He seemed to think it was something to do with the second amendment, but it's not)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Your point about lofts is a good one.

A ladder is a tool.

If you cannot get into the loft without using a ladder, then by your lecturer's definition the entire loft is inaccessible.