Adding extra sockets to existing ring mains on ground floor

[Mikefromlondon]

I am having to add one extra double socket in two seperate rooms to a Ground floor ring circuit, that already feeds two double sockets in each room, the occupier wants an additional double socket in each room.

So what is the best way to achieve this with minimum disruption or least damaging way to skirting boards and plaster.

Question is : Can I wire the new additional sockets using a 2.5 T&E single run directly to the consumer unit and wired to the same circuit breaker that feeds the ring mains to the existing sockets.

Put it this way, I do not have the standard option to run cables from the new sockets to one of the nearest existing sockets without damaging skirting boards and plaster, but I can run a new cable from the new sockets directly to the consumer as a wise builder who added the additional sockets left palstic conduit from it to under the floor and behind the skirting, so for me it would be really easy to run a new cable through thisn plastic conduit and under the floor and then to the consumer unit.

Please let me have your views on this, thanks in advance.

Schematic :

(There will be maximum 3 double sockets in each room)
One room to consumer unit is 4m and the other 6m max run length for the new cable.

Image label corrected.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

As this sounds like it is not your property (not that would change my opinion by much) and it seems by your post that you do not know the best way to achieve the alteration wanted, that would suggest to me, that you should not be doing this work, as you lack the knowledge and competency to be doing this and that would also suggest you would be unable to comply to regulations and prove that the alteration is correctly installed and prior to commissioning proof it is safe to put into service. So your best option would be to employ someone who can.

 

[OwainDIYer]

You've said and drawn your existing circuits as a Ring, but label them as Radial.

You can do what you draw, but the two new sockets would be Spurs off a 32A Ring, not a radial circuit, provided the MCB terminal will take 4 x 2.5mm conductors.

 

[diyer56]

Out of interest, is the MCB definitely a 20 amp?

 

[Mikefromlondon]

@owainDIYER, thanks you have got my vote!

My apologies the label is incorrect on the drawing, thanks for pointing this out. I will try and amend this label, the MCB is definitely 20A, and NOT a 32A, not all sockets will be in use, since the new occupier wants his bed in a certain position and this covers one of the sockets which he can't use, and I do not like people plugging 4 way extension leads and overloading so I agreed to add additional double sockets one in each room.

Come to think of it, I could add another link between the two new sockets and form a secondary ring circuit connected to the same MCB, I am aware that all tyhe sockets in a room even if on two seperate rings should be fussed or protected by the same MCB, as there is a danger if half the sockets in a room are alive and the other half arn't as some people may think all may be dead before undertaking any electrical work on them.

Thnaks for your input, greately appreciated.

 

[winston1]

I am aware that all tyhe sockets in a room even if on two seperate rings should be fussed or protected by the same MCB, as there is a danger if half the sockets in a room are alive and the other half arn't as some people may think all may be dead before undertaking any electrical work on them.

Thee is no rule saying that at all.

 

[rjm2k]

I am aware that all tyhe sockets in a room even if on two seperate rings should be fussed or protected by the same MCB, as there is a danger if half the sockets in a room are alive and the other half arn't as some people may think all may be dead before undertaking any electrical work on them.

any electrical outlet should be verified as isolated before working on it, never assume that because one outlet in the room is isolated all others are.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

As this sounds like it is not your property (not that would change my opinion by much) and it seems by your post that you do not know the best way to achieve the alteration wanted, that would suggest to me, that you should not be doing this work, as you lack the knowledge and competency to be doing this and that would also suggest you would be unable to comply to regulations and prove that the alteration is correctly installed and prior to commissioning proof it is safe to put into service. So your best option would be to employ someone who can.

Yes it is my property, it was renovated about 4 years ago, I had all the walls skimmed and asked the builder to add additional sockets (back boxes) that I would wire up eventually when or if needed and were left covered with a blank plate.

I asked the builder to insert the usual oval plastic conduit to carry a single 2.5mm T&E to one of the other existing sockets in the room to tap into the existing ring mains, but didn't realise that it would mean ripping out the skirting now and chasing the wall to get to the existing sockets as the builder didn't provide the access rout to them, he only allowed a cable to be fed from the new sockets to underside of the floor, so now I did not want unnecessary damage to my plaster and ripping out skirting boards to add this spur wiring. Much easier for me if I can take them directly to the CU.

Your assumption is wrong about my competancy and ability to carry out electrical work, you are badly mistaken, I have been in this trade for probably longer than your age, (over 40 years) but I was not sure on the latest regs, I stopped being an electrician 15 years ago and and I am conversant with IEE edition 16, so my advice is either you offer your genuine help to people who want to try to do it themselves, or stop attacking them to prove yourself that you know it all, keep your sarcasm to yourself, I don't need this crap, I simply would not trust many electricians and probably you would be one of them, as the amount of crap and shoddy and dangerous workmanship I have come across is unbelievable, I deal with many properties most belonging to other people, how many times I have been called to put other professional's mess right!

So be wise, either you offer good genuine advice or don't make any comments if you can't help, your sarcasm won't help nobody.

You have just lost my respect I had for you.


I often feel scared to ask for any advice on here now for being rediculed!

 

[Mikefromlondon]

I am aware that all tyhe sockets in a room even if on two seperate rings should be fussed or protected by the same MCB, as there is a danger if half the sockets in a room are alive and the other half arn't as some people may think all may be dead before undertaking any electrical work on them.

any electrical outlet should be verified as isolated before working on it, never assume that because one outlet in the room is isolated all others are.

As a rule, I always do, never trust others wiring, thanks. I know a guy (neighbour) whose kitchen sockets are wired on two seperate circuits! when he asked me to look at why half his sockets weren't working, found out it was a cable fault as well as kitchen wired on two seperate circuits.

and another house in my street where all the chandiliers were alive! no earthing or break in earthing and a live fault !

 

[AndyPRK]

don't make the new sockets another ring. Its unnecessary and confusing.

 

[JohnW2]

Put it this way, I do not have the standard option to run cables from the new sockets to one of the nearest existing sockets without damaging skirting boards and plaster, but I can run a new cable from the new sockets directly to the consumer as a wise builder who added the additional sockets left palstic conduit from it to under the floor and behind the skirting, so for me it would be really easy to run a new cable through thisn plastic conduit and under the floor and then to the consumer unit.

Does none of the present ring circuit wiring exist under the floor?

Kind Regards, John

 

[rjm2k]

What kind of walls are they, how are they plastered?

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Put it this way, I do not have the standard option to run cables from the new sockets to one of the nearest existing sockets without damaging skirting boards and plaster, but I can run a new cable from the new sockets directly to the consumer as a wise builder who added the additional sockets left palstic conduit from it to under the floor and behind the skirting, so for me it would be really easy to run a new cable through thisn plastic conduit and under the floor and then to the consumer unit.

Does none of the present ring circuit wiring exist under the floor?

Kind Regards, John

Yes they do John, however, as I explained to feed the spur wiring to any of the existing boxes would mean removing the skirting boards to chase a route behind the skirting boards, and further chase another 6 to 9" above the skirting into the boxes, my walls were skimmed just about 4 years ago and brand new skirtings were put on nicely, all gaps nicely sealed so I really do nkt want to cut or rip off skirting, it is a 10" wide skirting, and removing it would ruin the finsih on it, all screws are filled up, so even to find out where the screw fixings are is going to ruin the smooth finish on it.

Using junction boxes is not my favourite past time, I hate to use junction boxes, avoid as far as possible, I know that is an option. Much rather if it is ok as has been said it is, so I will do this and as have also been advced no need to make a secindary ring circuit, so I could therefore wire directly from the new sockets to the CU, I just checked the 20Amp MCB can take 4 or even more conductors of 2.5mm cables.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

What kind of walls are they, how are they plastered?

They are solid brick walls, one being a 9" external and one being a 4" internal made bricks and plastered over, I guess it would have been possible if they were stud walls one could possibly find a route through it without disturbing plaster or skirtings. but thnaks for your asking.

 

[JohnW2]

Does none of the present ring circuit wiring exist under the floor?

Yes they do John, however, as I explained to feed the spur wiring to any of the existing boxes would mean .... Using junction boxes is not my favourite past time, I hate to use junction boxes, avoid as far as possible, I know that is an option.

I understand your wish to avoid disturbing the walls/skirting - so, yes, even though I share your dislike for JBs, that's what I was thinking of - using a couple of modern 'maintenance-free' JBs under the floor (traditional screw terminal ones are no longer allowed unless 'accessible') would be an option, which would involve no disturbance of the walls or skirting.

Much rather if it is ok as has been said it is, so I will do this ... and as have also been advced no need to make a secindary ring circuit, so I could therefore wire directly from the new sockets to the CU

That's certainly an option (and 'compliant with regs') - it's effectively just two unfused spurs off the ring, which 'happen' to originate at the CU. As has been said, making the two new sockets into a separate ring would achieve nothing other than confusion - and it's certainly not nice (although probably compliant) to have two rings running off the same MCB.

I just checked the 20Amp MCB can take 4 or even more conductors of 2.5mm cables.

Fair enough, although you'll need to be careful that they all do make good contact. As others have sort-of implied, unless there is a very good reason why it's a 20A MCB (unlikely, unless the cables are deeply embedded in insulation or something like that), you could probably upgrade it to 32A, which is what one would normally expect to see with a 2.5mm² ring final.

Kind Regards, John