Advice Needed - Plumber Demanding Extra Money

[RS3000]

I was a little surprised with the scrap value myself! The old boiler (A GlowWorm Space Saver) weighed an absolute tonne when lifting it into the car!

I got the first invoice for £96 and thought "that isn't bad", then realised we had an additional invoice for the metal too.

The plumber did say they weren't going so as much thesedays, trying to down play it, but we took it anyway and were glad we did.

Whilst loading it into the car a passing opportunist asked if he could take it for us, but we declined his kind offer

We also stripped any wiring and weighed that in too - every little helps, and it all adds up!

We agreed before the work was done that we were to get rid of the scrap, but this was after we got the quote. We also ended up getting rid of the boiler box and old fittings too etc etc, but we were happy to drop these off at the skip on the way to the scrappy.

 

[Soggy_weetabix]

Dearest Softus and Gas4you

I didnt even think that!

Quite clever thinking I think

Dave

 

[dan the man]

all this for a les than £200 quid! which u got back in scrap too which is lucky.. if i rip it out its my priviledge

 

[Softus]

get more than one quote

I really wish there was a law against this commonplace and yet incredibly anti-social piece of 'advice'.

Consider the effect of getting two quotes...

1. Two people attend, thereby using time and fuel.
2. Two people spend time assessing the job, working out a quote, putting it in writing, and sending it.
3. One of those people will never get the work.
4. Both quoters build the cost of quoting into their overheads, and recover it on each job.
5. Every customer who uses those tradespeople pays for the cost of two quotes.

If everyone got three quotes for every job done, then every customer would pay for the cost of three quotes for every job done.

What an unbelievably stupid, stupid, STUPID, waste of the country's resources.

 

[Agile]

I totally agree!

I give budgetary quotes over the telephone. If the caller finds that acceptable then I visit to confirm the quote and give it in writing.

Tony

 

[simond]

Well said, Softus.

I went to a house in June where I was handed a tender sheet. It was to just replace an oil boiler, the tender sheet had listed item by item; one oil boiler, one room thermostat , one pump, provide two refs etc etc .

Me: Any particular make of boiler you would like, I asked.

Customer: Ho ho, you tell me, I'm not an expert.

Me: where would you like the new boiler to be sited?

Customer: where do you think is best? I'm asking everyone the same questions...

Me: How many quotes are you getting?

Customer: You are number 6.

Me: 6! If you had told us that when booking your free quote we would have declined to come.

Customer: If you want the work you have to play by my rules..........I don't like your attitude very much. It is up to me how many quotes I get.

Anyway, we disagreed and I explained how everyone else would be indirectly paying the cost of the 5 unlucky (lucky?) quoting companies.

So he threw me out of his house. Next day we received a letter addressed to the MD from him, saying I was a very poor ambassador for the company, and suggesting retraining or the sack.

I have now been retrained, everything is peace and flowers

 

[powell30]

Hi Guys,

Whilst i bow to your collective experiences i would have to disagree on getting quotes. How on earth would a customer know if they were being ripped off unless they obtain say 2-3 quotes? Corrrect me if i am wrong but we all do this in one form or another. For instance, when i purchased my new van i was laying out 14k.....i went to 3 garages and played one off against the other, if i had accepted the first 'quote' i would be 520 quid poorer. You don't do this when you are purchasing large value items? I accept that 6 quotes is stupid. I accept what you say softus when you point out that costs of quotes will be built in but still, i can't see how joe public (and we are all joe public during some purchase process) can ensure they are getting value if they don't get several quotes.

Why do consumer organisations all say more or less the same thing, get references, get several quotes, try to use someone who has been used by another member of family and done good work etc etc.

None of these things by and of themselves ensure a good job but it is part of the consumer feeling they are getting value for money. Good idea about indicative cost Agile, i also do this to eliminate time wasters but i still go quote. When i do, turn up, look smart, know my stuff i convert near 80% of my quotes.... and i am rarely the cheapest (ok never been the dearest either) but quoting isn't always about cost, it's about selling yourself too. I wouldn't be happy if i was there to just make up the numbers but i have refused quotes when i don't like the customer (you get a feeling.......Simond knows what i mean!!). I just tell em i can't compete or give a stupid price. I think if customers didn't get a quote they thought acceptable this forum would be flooded with complaints.....it's how the human mind works.

 

[roberta1000]

get more than one quote

I really wish there was a law against this commonplace and yet incredibly anti-social piece of 'advice'.

What a snotty load of piffle. Maybe OK for tiny jobs worth £100 or so but for jobs in the £2500-£6k mark like this one?

Get 3 quotes from reputable tradesmen! It's built into their costs anyway - I generally base my budgetting on getting 1 job in every 2 or 3.

Quotes for my new bathroom recently came in from £9300 to £13500. I have personally won jobs where I quoted several £k below the competition and turned a good profit.

 

[Softus]

Hi Guys,

Whilst i bow to your collective experiences i would have to disagree on getting quotes.

Hi powell30 - I see your point of view, but I raise you one 'food for thought', as follows...

How on earth would a customer know if they were being ripped off unless they obtain say 2-3 quotes?

Two answers to this one:

1. How would a customer know they weren't being ripped off merely by obtaining say 2-3 quotes?

2. The correct way, IMHO, for you to engage a contractor is to obtain a set of recommendations from people you yourself already trust. These may be family members, neighbours, friends, colleagues, or another contractor.

Corrrect me if i am wrong but we all do this in one form or another.

You're wrong.

For one thing, with contractors I ask for a guide price, never a quotation.

For instance, when i purchased my new van i was laying out 14k.....i went to 3 garages and played one off against the other, if i had accepted the first 'quote' i would be 520 quid poorer. You don't do this when you are purchasing large value items?

For another thing, cars (and such like) are mass-production and therefore inherently fixed price items, with permanent staff employed to do nothing but persuade people to buy one. If you think you're not paying for the wages of those staff within the price of the car, then you're astonishingly naive.

I accept that 6 quotes is stupid. I accept what you say softus when you point out that costs of quotes will be built in but still, i can't see how joe public (and we are all joe public during some purchase process) can ensure they are getting value if they don't get several quotes.

Value is merely one criterion.

You haven't explained how getting several quotes delivers value.

You haven't explained how getting several quotes delivers competence.

You haven't explained how getting several quotes delivers safety.

You haven't explained how getting several quotes delivers courtesy.

You haven't explained how getting several quotes delivers tidiness.

You haven't explained how getting several quotes delivers trust.

You haven't explained how getting several quotes delivers a valuable warranty.

In fact, you haven't explained how getting several quotes delivers anything except a higher price than you would otherwise pay.

FYI, I don't give quotes. I don't spend time quoting, ergo my customers pay a lower price than they would if they insisted on having a quotation. I don't advertise (for the type of work that we're discussing on this topic), therefore all customers come to me via a recommendation, which means they already know that they'll get what's most important to them, be it value or something else.

Why do consumer organisations all say more or less the same thing, get references, get several quotes, try to use someone who has been used by another member of family and done good work etc etc.

I can hardly believe you're asking that question. It's because the idea of getting quotes is entrenched in the national psyche. It's because there are crooks and ****** and rip-off merchants who advertise in the yellow pages. It's because the 'consumer advice' is itself incompetent.

Most of all, it's because many people are mean and want to pay the minimum price, and are too hooked on that meanness to realise that you don't get the best job at the minimum price. You don't necessarily get it at the highest price either, but that merely underlines the point that you can't judge by price alone.

Here's a question: How do you ensure that you're getting value for money from consumer advice?

Do you invite "consumer organisations" to quote? Of course you f***ing don't. The advice is 'free', of course.

Have you ever wondered why it's free? Of course you f***ing haven't. The advice is 'free' because someone else pays for it.

Do you know who pays for it?

None of these things by and of themselves ensure a good job but it is part of the consumer feeling they are getting value for money.

How?! Please tell me how!

Good idea about indicative cost Agile, i also do this to eliminate time wasters but i still go quote. When i do, turn up, look smart, know my stuff i convert near 80% of my quotes.... and i am rarely the cheapest (ok never been the dearest either) but quoting isn't always about cost, it's about selling yourself too.

Oh I know that by getting a contractor round to quote that you can size them up in other ways, but of course you'd do that anyway. It's human nature to want to check that the person you're about to let into your house isn't a psychopathic underwear thief, and that they're not an alien with four heads, three of which will be used to bite the heads off all your pets while you're not looking, but none of these things can be determined by asking for a quotation.

I wouldn't be happy if i was there to just make up the numbers but i have refused quotes when i don't like the customer (you get a feeling.......Simond knows what i mean!!). I just tell em i can't compete or give a stupid price.

That's a worryingly dishonest way to decline a job.

If you're getting customers from people you don't like, then stop advertising.

I think if customers didn't get a quote they thought acceptable this forum would be flooded with complaints.....it's how the human mind works.

Wot?

 

[Softus]

What a snotty load of piffle.

Are you referring to what preceded, or followed, that statement?

Get 3 quotes from reputable tradesmen!

Please explain how you determine that the "tradesmen" are "reputable" before you ask them to quote.

 

[powell30]

Blimey Softus.....lol

How would they know they were not being ripped off.....they of course wouldn't...all the time...just most of the time. ie, to pick 3 crooks/shysters at random would be pretty hard to do not immpossible, just highly unlikely. But by obtaining additional quotes you lesson the risk and improve the chances you will get a price that is 'in line' with a fair value. More true if following the advice of comsumer organisations, go on recomendations etc etc. Also, i know you are switched on Softus, but there are more vulnerable people in our society that need help to ensure that they also get fair value when having large value works done. Old, mentally ill, etc etc.

To denegrate consumer advice like you have isn't fair. I can't believe old people still fall for the knock on the door and 'you're roof needs fixing missus....5k in cash alright?' but they do.....suppose they said, 'i'll get 2 quotes before i use you'.....ok, those 2 maybe bad un's too but if they followed CA using someone recommended OR getting quotes then the risk is lessened that they will be ripped off.

Never said i didn't know i was paying for manufaturers overheads....just that shopping around got me a better deal. That applies to ALL things. Even petrol is cheaper at some garages than others....it's called competition and that is what the quote process is at the bottom line. Don't forget it does serve other purposes. Defines work, defines costs works both ways softus. Never said it was perfect, just better than 1 single quote. It produces choice, both ways.

A quote is only the start of a business transaction, not the be all and end all. I did say that quotes don't produce a good job, but they do produce a chance for value for money. ie....all things being equal there are 3 softus's, all as qualified, all as competant, all as tidy etc etc. But one of you is 300 quid dearer, who would you pick??......peoples perception of value is exactly that a perception....from their point of view. I have and do win business whilst not being the cheapest. I can't expalin the process softus, i ain't that clever, just that it tends to work....most of the time.

But i accept that others work differently, and it can and does work for them.....

 

[D_Hailsham]

get more than one quote

I really wish there was a law against this commonplace and yet incredibly anti-social piece of 'advice'.

How otherwise does the customer know if he is getting value for money and paying the going rate for the job? Or are you suggesting that it does not matter whom you employ, (provided it is not BG, who will rip everyone off and charge twice what an independent charges; in which case you should get other quotes)?

1. Two people attend, thereby using time and fuel.
2. Two people spend time assessing the job, working out a quote, putting it in writing, and sending it.
3. One of those people will never get the work.

4. Both quoters build the cost of quoting into their overheads, and recover it on each job.
5. Every customer who uses those tradespeople pays for the cost of two quotes.

OK, so it adds one or two percent to the cost of a job, but I, the customer, have reduced the cost by 25%; and it's my hard earned money.

The example of buying a car, given by another member, is not really relevant as the customer knows exactly which car he wants and is trying to get that car for the lowest price. The typical customer installing a new central heating system has no idea what he wants, apart from a warm house, so he is completely at the mercy of the person he employs. Two installers may quote exactly the same inclusive price, but one will be using cheaper components, e.g Baxi boilers, while the other will be quoting for a Viessmann or Buderus. The customer has no way of knowing which is the better buy.

This is why so many employ BG: they trust them and know they will be around if something does go wrong

In the current economic climate, with house builders laying off staff in their thousands and the threat of a recession, every sensible person is going to be very careful how they spend their money, if they spend it at all. This means that they will be even more inclined to get several quotes for a job. If the tradesman wants to survive and not join the ranks of failed businesses, he will have to provide realistic prices.

 

[Agile]

There is a further tool I use when somebody calls for a free quote.

I ask if they have received any quotes and if they are CORGI registered. usually they will tell me what their current quotes have come to. If they are less then I tell them we cannot compete with that and if they wish us to still come and quote and advise on whats required it will be a chargeable visit.

If the other quotes are higher then i usually will go there because it sounds as if we might get the job.

What I dont want to waste my time on, is going there free only to be told that plumberski is about half my price.

Tony

 

[powell30]

Fair point Agile. Wouldn't disagree with quantifying the position. I wasn't advocating quotes for quotes sake and like you i do give indicative pricing before i go quote. It's usually a good way to chat to the customer and tease out bits of usefull info too.

If i am honest i rarely find customers get multi quotes......1-3 tops if at all if i am recomended. to them Simonds experience seemed to me to be an exercise in lowest price only.....what the customer fails to realise is that if a quote is much lower they should be asking why!

 

[Agile]

In many cases its easy to see why plummerski is going to be so much cheaper.

He does not waste money and time training to become CORGI registered. Secondly he insures and registers his car/van abroad and he does not have to pay UK parking tickets.

Then he only rents a shared property here and is buying a nice six bed house at home for about £35k whereas we have to pay upwards of £300k for even a three bed house.

Tony