alternative to lamp fittings connector boxes

[johnbuckley]

I hate the cheapy plastic connector boxes which come supplied with metal ceiling and wall lamp fittings (pic attached). I would, before fitting, ideally like to replace the connectors with a wago 221's for ease of connecting. Probably being pedantic but I would prefer a lever type connection.
I have searched the forum and there seems to be a bit of confliction in advice given so I'd appreciate some advice on the following.
The lamps and wall lights are metal, double insulated.
If I were to remove the suppled plastic connector box and use wago 221's it would not be double insulated so I would need to connect an earth cable to the metal fitting; would this then be classed as safe considering that the wago connectors are only enclosed by the light fitting? Using a connector other than the lever type wouldn't be any use as the cables from the light fitting are stranded.
My other option is to use a wago box inside the wall or ceiling void which I'd rather not do if I can get away with it.
I've searched for a maintenance free container which would house the wagos and also fit into the lamp ceiling or wall housing but I don't seem to be able to find anything.
At the moment I'm leaning toward wago 221's and earth cable so any advice would be appreciated.

 

[ebee]

Solder the flex strands to form a solid conductor or crimp them using tiny crimps any good?

 

[johnbuckley]

Solder the flex strands to form a solid conductor or crimp them using tiny crimps any good?

Thanks for your reply. If I had to use the supplied plastic terminal block, yes I would solder the strands. I'm trying to avoid using it and use wago 221's which would make the lamp not double insulated.

 

[Sureitsoff?]

you could use ferrules on the stranded cables such that they fit better in the supplied junction box

 

[johnbuckley]

you could use ferrules on the stranded cables such that they fit better in the supplied junction box

Thanks; it's not fitting into the supplied junction box that is my question. I want to do away with the supplied junction box because I don't like them and use Wago's instead.

 

[opps]

Solder the flex strands to form a solid conductor or crimp them using tiny crimps any good?

I was, perhaps incorrectly, under the impression that using solder on flex was a bad move given that it wicks down under the insulation and could potentially snap strands that will not be visible.

I am happy to be corrected.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Thanks for your reply. If I had to use the supplied plastic terminal block, yes I would solder the strands.

Solder, or tinning the strands of a flexible cable it frowned upon, especially where use in screw terminals is involved, because the solder in time can migrate out of position, allowing the termination to become loose. Use furrels, or 'boot laces'.

 

[johnbuckley]

Thanks for the replies so far guys; I take the point about not soldering, I didn't know that however we are drifting from my original question.

 

[JohnW2]

.... If I were to remove the suppled plastic connector box and use wago 221's it would not be double insulated so I would need to connect an earth cable to the metal fitting; ....

Is there not at least one layer of insulating material between inner parts of the fitting and the (presumably touchable) metal outside it? If there were, and if you could locate the Wagos within that later of insulation, I would have thought that it would probably still qualify as Class II, at least in common-sense terms, if not also in they eyes of officialdom (provided the Wagos were installed correctly, with no exposed conductors)'

 

[ebee]

Just to clarify my comment ref soldering. I mean to lightly twist then solder then cut to length then put into levered Wago's or similar.

If not in an "approved" box then in my opinion the fitting should be inadequately earthed too - I agree that if they can be kept away away from metal sufficiently then some might consider them still class 2 but in reality no, once that one careful person has placed tgem such they can then move later by natural vibration or future meddling , so no.

 

[johnbuckley]

Is there not at least one layer of insulating material between inner parts of the fitting and the (presumably touchable) metal outside it? If there were, and if you could locate the Wagos within that later of insulation, I would have thought that it would probably still qualify as Class II, at least in common-sense terms, if not also in they eyes of officialdom (provided the Wagos were installed correctly, with no exposed conductors)'

When connected into the wagos there would be no exposed copper. The live and neutral from the lamp fitting flex, once removed from the plastic terminal box, will not have the protection of the outer sheath once fitted into a wago connector, unless I put it into a wago box which I'd rather not do; so my question really is, if I fitted an earth lead connected to the body of the metal light fitting, is that considered safe? Should the live wire somehow come out of the wago there would be nothing to stop it touching the metal fitting. I'm probably answering my own question and I guess I'm looking for a confirmation.

 

[johnbuckley]

Just to clarify my comment ref soldering. I mean to lightly twist then solder then cut to length then put into levered Wago's or similar.

If not in an "approved" box then in my opinion the fitting should be inadequately earthed too - I agree that if they can be kept away away from metal sufficiently then some might consider them still class 2 but in reality no, once that one careful person has placed tgem such they can then move later by natural vibration or future meddling , so no.

Yes that's what I was thinking, thanks. Unless anyone else comes up with a reason not to I'll be connecting the live and neutral with wago 221's and the main earth to the metal of the light fitting.

 

[plugwash]

Short answer: yes go ahead and earth the fitting, then treat it like you would any other electrical enclosure.

Long answer:

The general idea is that there should be two lines of Defense against electric shock. Different standards use different terminology for these but the principle remains.

In "class 1" construction, "protective earthing" is used as one of the two lines of defense against electric shock. In "class 2" construction, "double insulation" (two seperate layers of insulation, basic insulation and supplementry insulation), or "reinforced insulation" (a single layer of insultation that is deemed equivilent to both basic and supplementary insulation)

A plastic cased class 2 light fitting is relatively simple. Basic insulation and good workmanship form the first line of defense. The plastic case forms the second line of defense. Similarly a metal cased class 1 light fitting can be simple. Again basic insulation and good workmanship form the first line of defense and the earthed metal case forms the second line of defense.

A metal cased class 2 light fitting though is a can of worms. On a metal cased class 1 design, careful design is needed to ensure there is always double or reinforced insulation between the metal case and the wiring. Usually metal cased class 2 light fittings rely on a "terminal box" to maintain the class 2 construction where the supply cable enters the fitting.

Such fittings may be ok on a brand new install, designed with them in mind, but when installing under real-world conditions they tend to fall short. Terminal boxes are often too small to accomodate multiple cables. Existing cables are often stripped back too far to take the sheath into the terminal box. There is usually litt

At that point what is an installer to do?

1. Bodge the fitting in, leave it as as hazardous "class 0" installation with "basic insulation" exposed inside the main metal body of the fitting. This is substandard work, but it's all too common.
2. Add a protective earth connection, effectively converting the fitting to class 1. This is generally what I would suggest.
3. Modify the fixed installation to provide a single sheathed cable to the fitting.

 

[JohnW2]

Should the live wire somehow come out of the wago there would be nothing to stop it touching the metal fitting. I'm probably answering my own question and I guess I'm looking for a confirmation.

OK. If it's the case that there would be no additional; insulation between the Wagos and 'touchable metal', then you're right - that would no longer qualify as Class II ("double insulated").

.... so my question really is, if I fitted an earth lead connected to the body of the metal light fitting, is that considered safe?

As has been said, yes. In terms of electrical common sense, that would be fine (i.e.'safe'). Future eyebrows might be raised by the fact that you had earthed something which bore a Class II marking, and particularly if they knew that the manufacturer's instructions had said that the fitting "must not be earthed", but that would (at least, in my opinion) really be the problem of the owner of the eyebrows

Kind Regards, John

 

[johnbuckley]

Short answer: yes go ahead and earth the fitting, then treat it like you would any other electrical enclosure.

Long answer:

The general idea is that there should be two lines of Defense against electric shock. Different standards use different terminology for these but the principle remains.

In "class 1" construction, "protective earthing" is used as one of the two lines of defense against electric shock. In "class 2" construction, "double insulation" (two seperate layers of insulation, basic insulation and supplementry insulation), or "reinforced insulation" (a single layer of insultation that is deemed equivilent to both basic and supplementary insulation)

A plastic cased class 2 light fitting is relatively simple. Basic insulation and good workmanship form the first line of defense. The plastic case forms the second line of defense. Similarly a metal cased class 1 light fitting can be simple. Again basic insulation and good workmanship form the first line of defense and the earthed metal case forms the second line of defense.

A metal cased class 2 light fitting though is a can of worms. On a metal cased class 1 design, careful design is needed to ensure there is always double or reinforced insulation between the metal case and the wiring. Usually metal cased class 1 light fittings rely on a "terminal box" to maintain the class 2 construction where the supply cable enters the fitting.

Such fittings may be ok on a brand new install, designed with them in mind, but when installing under real-world conditions they tend to fall short. Terminal boxes are often too small to accomodate multiple cables. Existing cables are often stripped back too far to take the sheath into the terminal box. There is usually litt

At that point what is an installer to do?

1. Bodge the fitting in, leave it as as hazardous "class 0" installation with "basic insulation" exposed inside the main metal body of the fitting. This is substandard work, but it's all too common.
2. Add a protective earth connection, effectively converting the fitting to class 1. This is generally what I would suggest.
3. Modify the fixed installation to provide a single sheathed cable to the fitting.

Thanks for that reply, given the info I'll use wago's and add an earth cable.