Another Smart Meter Scam?

[bernardgreen]

Let's hope that some software did not pick up the "A" in "thanks"

I did think that, about 10 seconds after I sent the reply.

 

[bernardgreen]

British Gas, who say the pressure is from Ofgem

 

[SUNRAY]

This leads me to a more general issue I've often wondered about. We frequently hear of people 'declining the offer of' (or 'refusing to have') a 'smart' meter, but I wonder whether they really have any say over what is done with what is undeniably the supplier's equipment.

Kind Regards, John

Well we do have some say, ie: e7, PP, credit and of course which supplier.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

This leads me to a more general issue I've often wondered about. We frequently hear of people 'declining the offer of' (or 'refusing to have') a 'smart' meter, but I wonder whether they really have any say over what is done with what is undeniably the supplier's equipment.

Not sure why you are going over this ground again:
OFGEM said:
Do I have to have a smart meter?
While we and the government think that all consumers will benefit from smart meters, they aren’t compulsory and you can choose not to have one.

Edited to fix source!

 

[JohnW2]

Well we do have some say, ie: e7, PP, credit and of course which supplier.

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one necessarily has any say over which particular equipment the supplier chooses to install in order to provide the service we have contracted for, does it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

deleted temporarily - prematrure pressingf of send button!

 

[JohnW2]

Not sure why you are going over this ground again: OFCOM said: Do I have to have a smart meter? While we and the government think that all consumers will benefit from smart meters, they aren’t compulsory and you can choose not to have one.

I'm going over that ground again because I've been thinking, and wondering what that statement really means.

As far as the government, and OFGEM (which I presume is what you meant) are concerned, smart meters clearly aren't (at least currently) compulsory. However, I'm not at all sure that OFGEM (or government) can speak for what equipment individual suppliers may chose to install (and be prepared to install, or not install) in order to provide an electricity supply, can they?

Do you think that a customer should be able to 'choose not to have' ('refuse to have'), say, an electronic meter or, indeed, 'choose not to have' ('refuse to have') a meter that they do not regard as aesthetically acceptable?

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

OFGEM (sorry already fixed) never made any statement about aesthetics, so that argument is specious. What they and the government have both categorically stated is that (at the moment) a consumer has the right to refuse a 'smart' meter. (This was a government decision made for reasons of political expediency, i.e. to shut some vocal members of the public up.) Why should you doubt anything the government says?
Actually please don't answer that.

 

[JohnW2]

OFGEM (sorry already fixed) never made any statement about aesthetics, so that argument is specious.

I'm not sure that is a valid counter-argument. As far as I am aware, I don't think that they have said anything about any reason for which a consumer might want to refuse a 'smart' meter, have they?

What they and the government have both categorically stated is that (at the moment) a consumer has the right to refuse a 'smart' meter.

They have, and in legal terms they are obviously correct - and, as above, their statement implies that a consumer has a right to refuse to have a 'smart' meter for any (or 'no') reason.

However, as I've said, I'm not at all sure that that legal position is relevant in terms of a consumer's commercial relationship with an electricity supplier, which is essentially a 'private' matter. Yes, a consumer could obviously refuse to allow a particular supplier to install any particular piece of equipment in their property, but the supplier would, in turn, probably have a right to refuse to provide an electricity supply to a consumer who was not prepared to have an item of equipment of their choice installed in the property - and, indeed, the small (or maybe even 'big') print of the supply contract would probably say something to the effect that a condition of the electricity supply being provided was that the supplier should be allowed to install 'necessary equipment' ('of their choice') in the property.

Furthermore, my recent extensive survey of electricity suppliers and tariffs indicate that a seemingly quite high (and probably increasing) proportion of the tariffs on offer (for many companies, all tariffs other than the {usually expensive} 'SVT'), particularly the cheaper tariffs, are only available to those who agree to have a smart meter installed - thereby essentially contractually eliminating the 'right to refuse', unless one wants to go for one of the most expensive tariffs around.

Kind Regards, John

 

[foxhole]

The one bit of this story I don't quite understand is that, if the chap came with the intention of changing the meter, and actually got as far as removing the cutout fuse and replacing some tails, he presumably must have entered your house bearing a toolbox and at least some supplies (25mm² cable, for a start) - which surely is not one would expect of a meter reader 'coming to read the meter'? Did you not smell a few rats?

Kind Regards, John

Took me on average about 30 secs to get in read a meter and get out, [when I did that job].

 

[EFLImpudence]

I'm not sure that is a valid counter-argument. As far as I am aware, I don't think that they have said anything about any reason for which a consumer might want to refuse a 'smart' meter, have they?
They have, and in legal terms they are obviously correct - and, as above, their statement implies that a consumer has a right to refuse to have a 'smart' meter for any (or 'no') reason.

However, as I've said, I'm not at all sure that that legal position is relevant in terms of a consumer's commercial relationship with an electricity supplier, which is essentially a 'private' matter. Yes, a consumer could obviously refuse to allow a particular supplier to install any particular piece of equipment in their property, but the supplier would, in turn, probably have a right to refuse to provide an electricity supply to a consumer who was not prepared to have an item of equipment of their choice installed in the property - and, indeed, the small (or maybe even 'big') print of the supply contract would probably say something to the effect that a condition of the electricity supply being provided was that the supplier should be allowed to install 'necessary equipment' ('of their choice') in the property.

Furthermore, my recent extensive survey of electricity suppliers and tariffs indicate that a seemingly quite high (and probably increasing) proportion of the tariffs on offer (for many companies, all tariffs other than the {usually expensive} 'SVT'), particularly the cheaper tariffs, are only available to those who agree to have a smart meter installed - thereby essentially contractually eliminating the 'right to refuse', unless one wants to go for one of the most expensive tariffs around.

I really don't know why you are seemingly unable to understand the simple "You don't have to have a smart meter (if you don't want one)".
Likening it to refusing to have any supplier's equipment is silly. Presumably you can but then you don't get any electricity.

That there are discounts to persuade you to have one is irrelevant.


There are similar discounts if you pay by direct debit - but you don't have to.

 

[JohnD]

British Gas, who say the pressure is from Ofgem

We've still got a government giving the orders.

Who is it, again?

 

[JohnW2]

I really don't know why you are seemingly unable to understand the simple "You don't have to have a smart meter (if you don't want one)".

The statement is clear enough but, as I keep saying, I don't think it is a guarantee that any particular supplier will provide a supply to someone who "doesn't want a smart meter" - there are certainly some suppliers out there which do not offer any tariffs to people not prepared to have a smart meter.

Likening it to refusing to have any supplier's equipment is silly. Presumably you can but then you don't get any electricity.

I didn't say anything about refusing to have "any supplier's equipment" - since, as you say, that would mean no supply. I was likening it to refusing to have some particular item of supplier's equipment (e.g. refusing to have an electronic meter, because one believed that electro-mechanical ones were 'more reliable'). I see no reason to 'single out' smart meters - after all, I can but presume that neither government nor OFGEM believe that there is a specific 'problem' with them.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I didn't say anything about refusing to have "any supplier's equipment" - since, as you say, that would mean no supply.I was likening it to refusing to have some particular item of supplier's equipment

Ok. Hair duly split. I should have said "any particular item of supplier's equipmetnt".

(e.g. refusing to have an electronic meter, because one believed that electro-mechanical ones were 'more reliable').

The Government has not said "You may refuse to have an electronic meter".

I see no reason to 'single out' smart meters - after all, I can but presume that neither government nor OFGEM believe that there is a specific 'problem' with them.

They are singled out because the Government has singled them out by its instruction to suplliers to fit them - the sole reason for them being fitted at the moment.

 

[JohnW2]

Ok. Hair duly split. I should have said "any particular item of supplier's equipmetnt".

I'm not so sure that it's a matter of splitting hairs - the two are very different (as I said, an example of 'a particular item of supplier's equipment' being an electronic meter').

The Government has not said "You may refuse to have an electronic meter".

They haven't - but the point I keep making is that, although they say that any consumer may refuse to have a 'smart' meter, as far as I am aware they have not said that a supplier is obliged to supply electricity to someone who exercises that option to refuse to have a 'smart' meter. As I said, there are certainly some companies who do not offer any tariffs to people not prepared to have a 'smart' meter (and, of course, many others who only offer expensive tariffs to those who refuse to have such a meter).

They are singled out because the Government has singled them out by its instruction to suplliers to fit them ...

I think that implies what I think is a widely-held misconception. As I understand it, the government targets related to the 'offering' of smart meters to all customers by a certain date, regardless of whether or not customers accept those offers - which I suppose reflects the government's/OFGEM's statement that consumers 'may refuse' the offers.

Kind Regards, John