At Risk or NCS?

[fullyabsorbent]

I recently had a problem with my water heater. After repairing it, and unrelated to the fault, the gas engineer claimed that the pipework was undersized he said the water heater was "AT RISK" and he isolated it at the inlet valve. His report claims "The burner pressure on water heater is 11.8mb. Standing pressure = 23mb, Working pressure taken at water
heater whilst hob on = 17mb. (pipework is undersized!) Water Heater= "AT RISK" isolated at inlet valve"

I have read elsewhere that undersized pipe work should be classed as "Not to Current Standards"

"... anything which does not comply with the gas regulations but is neither ID nor AR. This is called "Not to Current Standard" (NCS).

"A good example could be when a gas pipe feeding an appliance is too small. The pressure drop along the pipe means the inlet pressure to the appliance is too low, so the appliance burns less gas than it is designed to burn (the flames are a bit smaller). This is clearly not ID, nor is it even AR, but it isn't right. Provided the appliance is running safely there is no risk, so it is simply classed as "Not to Current Standards" (NCS)."

Which one is right?

 

[petit_pablo]

Depends on the appliance and if gas safe where contacted they would put all the onus on the engineer to make the choice.

Most water heaters are fixed rate appliances. Therefore they have only been tested and certified to work at one stated burner pressure. If the gas pressure is so low that this cannot be acheived then the appliance is operating outside its tested boundaries and potentially could be a problem at some point in the future regardless of its current safe operation. Hence AR.

ID = There is an immediate threat to life or property.
AR = There is a potential threat to life or property.
NCS = There is a problem that wont cause any threat but isnt correct as per british standards. (NCS is often used to highlight if something hasnt been fitted correcly as per the manufacurers instructions too).

 

[Boilerman2]

The answer is not quite that simple

Pipework undersized, but not effecting safe use of appliance-NCS

Pipework undersized and effecting the operation of the applaince - AR

It is the Engineer at "the sharp end" on site that has to use his or her judgement to decide which

 

[GuessMan]

It would be only AR if the manufacturers specified a minimum working pressure. Even if it was AR, he should have only turned off the appliance with your permission.

Your gasman was either fresh out of career change college, paranoid that gas safe would nail him, looking for work, or just a knob.

He cannot turn anything off unless he can prove the appliance is Immediately Dangerous. Show him this post and ask for your money back. Too many dicks on this forum who need people like him, as ammo, to bash the gas industry?

 

[Boilerman2]

Assuming you are a pro engineer Mr Guessman read the unsafe situation procedure before bad mouthing the actions of an industry collegue!!

AR Appliance HAVE to be turned off (with consent or not) and a AR label & warning notice raised ID have to be disconected as well

if the clint decides to turn back on that is their affair as the gas engineer will have discharged his duty of care in writing !

 

[MeterMonkey]

AR Appliance HAVE to be turned off (with consent or not) and a AR label & warning notice raised ID have to be disconected as well

Is this entirely true?

If i dont get permission to turn it off, I dont turn it off. Ive got my paperwork signed so its on the customers head. Turning it off is as simple as the usercontrol in the off position, or if there is a constant pilot light, leaving it extinguished.

If its ID, and I dont get permission, Ill give the transporter a bell and let them deal with it.

 

[Boilerman2]

I always turn off an AR and do paperwork if the client then starts it up it is their problem walking away after leaving an AR working is a risky strategy in my view!!

 

[unky]

I always turn off an AR and do paperwork if the client then starts it up it is their problem walking away after leaving an AR working is a risky strategy in my view!!

Do you inform them they may be in breach of the law for turning it back on.
You must follow the complete rigmarole.

Get the wrong client and you could find yourself in court very easily if you don't receive permission.
(It has happened)

 

[GuessMan]

So the debate begins....

AR for no Benchmark
AR for incorrect clearances around an appliance (for servicing)
AR no screws in short horizontal flue passing through a wall cemented both sides.

All three above are real at risk situations, how many would you turn off? The instructions I have ALWAYS worked to are, "with the consent of the responsible person the appliance should be switched off". I always put stickers on and get the warning notice signed "switch off refused".

Our registration is a proof of qualification and competence, not a Gestapo badge. If you contact gassafe, they will always say it's your call, some use no common sense. I carry out a risk assessment and act accordingly. With a WP of 17mb and max burner pressure of 11.8mb with a non steamer without a zero governor gas valve, there would be no risk. The RGI was working on the basis of max 1mb drop to the appliance - this would have to be shown by a test nipple downstream on any additional restriction such as a gas cock or the gas valve itself.

Edit What was the working pressure at the meter? Standing gas pressure proves nothing except that pressure is there?

 

[fullyabsorbent]

Thanks for the interesting replies.

So there seems to be some debate as to whether the engineer made the right call in saying it was a AR rather than a NCS, although it seems that Gas safe would back up his decision on this?

But is not clear as to whether having given his "AR" notice he was in the right to turn off the appliance. He did not ask my permission as to whether he could isolate the Water heater (a Main Medway Super). Nor did he put any stickers anywhere.

Any ideas as to whether he can turn off an AR without the clients permission?

 

[namsag]

Boilerman2 i would suggest you actually read the procedures in what your allowed to do when an appliance is AR or ID.And what you then do when a customer refuses you permission to touch it
You cannot do anything to appliance without there consent

 

[Dan Robinson]

E shouldn't have switched off without permission, but what ya gonna do?

T

 

[namsag]

This is one thing that people should not have to lookup it should be drummed into them after all its your lively hood or someones life.

 

[fullyabsorbent]

If the engineer made a mistake i'd like to ask him for a refund. He is trading like a reputable company with all the bells and whistles and he was so supremely sure that he was making the right decisions that it just didn't feel right.

 

[kirkgas]

AR Appliance HAVE to be turned off (with consent or not) and a AR label & warning notice raised ID have to be disconected as well

Is this entirely true?

If i dont get permission to turn it off, I dont turn it off. Ive got my paperwork signed so its on the customers head. Turning it off is as simple as the usercontrol in the off position, or if there is a constant pilot light, leaving it extinguished.

If its ID, and I dont get permission, Ill give the transporter a bell and let them deal with it.

NEVER isolate a pilot on an AR appliance nless you do a TT to confirm the FSD has shut, you are making more work for yourself, simply say to the customer " i need to discuss aproblem with this appliance, before i do, is it ok if i turn it off, i dont want to burn your gas with the cost of it these days" (thats usually enough to be given permission, tell them what the prob is and leave, as you have asked for and got permission to turn it off, leave them a notice and you are legally fully covered