Barristers striking

[IT Minion]

Surely there's a difference between 'innocent' and 'unable to prove guilt due to a flawed investigation'?.

Torture does do that, you can beat people into admitting anything. But no, innocent until proven guilty. They're innocent in the eyes of the law.

Also they didn't do it. The actual bombers have been identified by Chris Mullin and some of their identities have been released after their deaths.

 

[JohnD]

Surely there's a difference between 'innocent' and 'unable to prove guilt due to a flawed investigation'?.

I can see you really, really want to find an excuse for locking people up for more than twenty years for a crime they did not commit.

Where do you stand on hanging people for a crime they did not commit? In favour?

 

[Pat ex]

I can see you really, really want to find an excuse for locking people up for more than twenty years for a crime they did not commit.

Where do you stand on hanging people for a crime they did not commit? In favour?

Another case of an innocent man being hanged for a crime he did not commit.
Sadly it has blighted his family since:

The family of a father who was wrongly convicted of murder have been given a police apology 70 years after he was executed in a British prison.
Mahmood Mattan, a British Somali and former seaman, was hanged in 1952 after he was convicted of killing shopkeeper Lily Volpert in her store in Cardiff.

South Wales Police apology 70 years after hanging injustice

Family get apology after wrongful murder conviction and execution of father in British prison.

www.bbc.com

 

[transam]

dont the scots have some not proven verdict as opposed to a guilty or not guilty verdict ??

As for the birmingham 6 or the guildord 4

was any one brought to account over the mis carriage of justice ????????? obviously there was some type of conspiracy / stitch up ? by plod ?

I any event under my criteria they would not have recieved the death penalty.

only 100 % guilty beyond any doubt would be bumped off .

 

[IT Minion]

dont the scots have some not proven verdict as opposed to a guilty or not guilty verdict ??

As for the birmingham 6 or the guildord 4

was any one brought to account over the mis carriage of justice ????????? obviously there was some type of conspiracy / stitch up ? by plod ?

I any event under my criteria they would not have recieved the death penalty.

only 100 % guilty beyond any doubt would be bumped off .

There were confessions and forensic evidence they handled the bombs. That's pretty cut and dried.

The first were forced after torture. The second was botched.

 

[transam]

There were confessions and forensic evidence they handled the bombs. That's pretty cut and dried.

The first were forced after torture. The second was botched.

no its not

forensic was due to some flawed test that can be reproduced by handling playing cards ( apparently )

than torture mis treatment was involved .

so its not cut and dried

cut and dried would be for example a case some while back where a single mother got a job and left her 1 year old with a child carer

that care and her partner eexually abused that baby whilst in there care , and ( cut and dried) filmed them selves doing it

not an isolated incident on this baby either it was sytermatic

the videos came to light due to another matter , when items were siezed at the house

both of em ( man and woman) would have been dispatched to the next life afai am concerned

cut and dried 100% guilty . no ifs buts maybes or anything else

simples

 

[Vinty]

There were confessions and forensic evidence they handled the bombs. That's pretty cut and dried

That is nonsense.
The forensic evidence was flawed and later discredited.
The prosecution misled the jury claiming that there was forensic evidence that showed the accused had handled explosives.
The scientist who carried out the forensic tests was later forced to take early retirement because he had bungled not just the Birmingham 6 forensic tests but others as well.
The prosecution claimed that traces of Nitroglycerin were found on the accused, when in fact it was traces of chemicals which are present in Nitroglycerin that were found, however it was shown later that same chemicals could be found in a number common household products such as washing up liquid.
Quote.
Frank Skuse (born ca. 1934)[1] is a British former forensic scientist for the North West Forensic Laboratories based in Chorley, Lancashire. His flawed conclusions, eventually discredited, contributed to the convictions of Judith Ward and the Birmingham Six.[2]

 

[IT Minion]

You both miss my point. There was enough evidence presented to the Jury to make it seem like they were guilty. But it was junk and should never have been shown.

Which is why Transams judicial execution fantasies are so clearly flawed.

 

[transam]

You both miss my point. There was enough evidence presented to the Jury to make it seem like they were guilty. But it was junk and should never have been shown.

Which is why Transams judicial execution fantasies are so clearly flawed.

Not flawed in the slightest

 

[JohnD]

no its not

forensic was due to some flawed test that can be reproduced by handling playing cards ( apparently )

than torture mis treatment was involved .

so its not cut and dried

Found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Nobody knows how many other people have been wrongly convicted.

 

[transam]

Found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Nobody knows how many other people have been wrongly convicted.

Found guilty due to dodgy evidence
Porkie pies etc etc

And no one held to account over the caper

No body knows how many guilty have been wrongly acquitted

 

[Pat ex]

Found guilty due to dodgy evidence
Porkie pies etc etc

And no one held to account over the caper

No body knows how many guilty have been wrongly acquitted

The same applies to those guilty that have been acquitted due to dodgy evidence, porkie pies, pressure, sloppy policing, etc.

The system is not perfect. Lack of adequate funding, inadequate training, supervising, recruiting, etc, exacerbates those mistakes.

 

[fillyboy]

You both miss my point. There was enough evidence presented to the Jury to make it seem like they were guilty. But it was junk and should never have been shown.

Which is why Transams judicial execution fantasies are so clearly flawed.

Hypothetical situation:

I'm a racist and a black person has been killed, I'm caught fleeing the scene with blood on my hands, I can't be convicted because the fact I'm a racist fleeing the scene with blood on my hands is 'circumstantial evidence'. I wasn't fleeing the scene, I was going back to Ireland to visit me mum, after a lengthy 'enhanced interrogation' it transpires I wasn't going back to Ireland to visit me mum, I was going back for the funeral of my best mate, also a racist, who being a daft bugger managed to blow himself up whilst in the process of trying to kill another black man.

The police catch me fleeing the scene with blood on my hands and apprehend me, they say 'you did it filllyboy'. 'no I didn't', so they give me a good slap. 'OK, I did do it'. I'm nicked.

Years later, after numerous appeals, my conviction is overturned because I only admitted to doing it because the police gave me a slap, not only that, the method used to determine that the blood on my hands was that of the black man who had been killed wasn't fool proof, it could have been someone elses blood, maybe even the blood of a white bloke.

The evidence is unreliable, the fact I was caught fleeing the scene fleeing the scene and my best mates routinely execute black people is simply 'circumstantial'.

 

[johnny2007]

Hypothetical situation:

I'm a racist and a black person has been killed, I'm caught fleeing the scene with blood on my hands, I can't be convicted because the fact I'm a racist fleeing the scene with blood on my hands is 'circumstantial evidence'. I wasn't fleeing the scene, I was going back to Ireland to visit me mum, after a lengthy 'enhanced interrogation' it transpires I wasn't going back to Ireland to visit me mum, I was going back for the funeral of my best mate, also a racist, who being a daft bugger managed to blow himself up whilst in the process of trying to kill another black man.

The police catch me fleeing the scene with blood on my hands and apprehend me, they say 'you did it filllyboy'. 'no I didn't', so they give me a good slap. 'OK, I did do it'. I'm nicked.

Years later, after numerous appeals, my conviction is overturned because I only admitted to doing it because the police gave me a slap, not only that, the method used to determine that the blood on my hands was that of the black man who had been killed wasn't fool proof, it could have been someone elses blood, maybe even the blood of a white bloke.

The evidence is unreliable, the fact I was caught fleeing the scene fleeing the scene and my best mates routinely execute black people is simply 'circumstantial'.

Exactly, all circumstantial.
Nobody saw you committing the act, there's no cctv, your first response was "I didn't do it".
As for the blood, tests nowadays are pretty accurate, so if that wasn't the killed person's blood, they would know.
Also, the days of cops beating suspects to get a confession are well over.
There are so many procedures that need to be followed to avoid such things and any confession taken outside these strict rules will be null and disregarded by courts.
In your case, you would be caught, cautioned and formally arrested on suspicion of murder at a police station.
Anything you would say after caution would/could be used against you, but in murder cases you won't be left alone with one officer.
There would be at least half a dozen at any time, so unless they're all bent, they won't beat you or make up a confession.
You would be offered legal representation and why would you refuse???
What some of us disagree with is the costly court case to basically get away with a very lenient sentence in a murder case, not the first legal representation at the police station.
As you can see, it's not as easy as you think.
The cases mentioned earlier in this thread are clear cut, no doubt about these criminals' guilt.
What you're describing is not clear cut.

 

[Notch7]

I'm a racist

Oops