Bathroom electrics

[TheChump]

Hello, first time post...

I recently bought a house and have slowly discovered how the electrics hang together. Despite on first appearances looking reasonably well maintained, the house is a tad ropier than I'd first thought, and the electrics older and for want of a better word crappier than expected. It's the first house I've been in where the light switches, despite looking modern, are almost so stiff as to be unusable, a sign of things to come...

The upstairs lights didn't come on a few weeks ago, so I took a look at the distribution board in the cellar (old-style wired fuses), could see nothing wrong aside from the previous eejit owner having used copper wire instead of fuse wire....anyways, replaced copper "fuses" with correctly rated wire, unsurprisingly still no lights, so had a further hunt around, and found another, smaller, distribution board spurred off the main one. It appears to have 5 MCBs under a plastic cover, one had flipped, so I reset it and all was well....

Problem one - this second distribution board is in a vanity unit under a sink (the vanity unit completely encloses the board, and access is via two small doors at the front). The sink/vanity unit is next to a fully enclosed shower cubicle. It's probably been this way for at least 10 years. On the plus side, the board appears to be reasonably safe from water ingress.

Problem two - the mains-wired smoke detectors on the upper floor appear to share the same circuit as the lights which failed - their lights came on once I'd flicked the MCB switch.

Question is, is such a setup legal / advised? I'm guessing an almighty no, but would appreciate an expert opinion or ten.

 

[ericmark]

The IET/BSI regulations recommend the electrics in a house are inspected and tested every 10 years or on change of occupant which ever is sooner. However it does not say who should do the testing seller or buyer but a good solicitor will normally advise the buyer as to if it needs doing by him or already done.

The regulations also do not permit the use of rewire-able fuses by normal persons although factories where only electricians change fuses can still use them. Technically my house could still use rewire-able fuses as I am an electrician but of course it doesn't.

Some areas have different rules in Wales smoke detectors have to be battery backed but I am told across the border in England they don't. However as to law only with rented accommodation does the law help. There are regulations and also Part P and although the latter is the law it only refers to work being done and not general state of the house.

From the very first edition of the wiring regulations back in 19th Century the problems have been noted and each new edition has recommended in the main more stringent controls although not always. As a result a house wired in 1965 could have no earths on the lights. And a house wired in 2007 may not have RCD's on all circuits. However not complying with latest regulations does not make a house dangerous. But since one can't mix and match often once one item is up graded a whole lot more needs to be done at the same time.

Access to electric boxes has been one of the upgrades and hiding a fuse box/ consumer unit at the back of an under-stairs cupboard is no longer permitted. However the rules don't say don't fit under stairs they say:-
132.12 Accessibility of electrical equipment
Electrical equipment shall be arranged so as to afford as may be necessary:
(i) Sufficient space for the initial installation and later replacement of individual items of electrical equipment
(ii) accessibility for operation, inspection, testing, fault detection, maintenance and repair.

What you as the house owner has to ask ones self is:- Is the safe for me and my family. From what you say I would answer "NO" and really it does not matter what the law or regulations say you will as a concerned party want to improve ones family's safety.

 

[TheChump]

Unfortunately as a naive first-time buyer I went on the word of the near-useless surveyor who said it all looked "OK" (plus the usual legal caveats they throw in, making their opinion so neutral as to be useless). Hindsight's great but I wish I'd called in an electrician and central heating techie to give me a more targetted (and accurate) appraisal of affairs.

Just spoke to a qualified electrician who informs me that provided the cupboard where the spurred consumer unit is located is lockable, it's within the regs, even in a shower room...

I presume the regs allow house owners who "inherit" an old-style rewireable fuse box to replace the fuse wire on a blown fuse? Or is it a legal requirement to change the consumer unit every time a safer unit becomes available?

 

[Chri5]

I presume the regs allow house owners who "inherit" an old-style rewireable fuse box to replace the fuse wire on a blown fuse? Or is it a legal requirement to change the consumer unit every time a safer unit becomes available?

Of course it isn't- if it were to be, then since July 2008 when the 17th ed became the 'new' standard myself and fellows in the industry would be busy re fitting 20 million homes

However, what your home has sounds unlikely to comply with the 16th or 17th edition. It also sounds like the system is aged and been added to in a not quite correct way.

Arrange a periodic inspection report (about £200'ish- the larger the job the more it will cost) that will id any major issues of safety and will hint at the extent of any remedial works required.

I would also add that the DIYer mindset of polishing up houses, fitting new kitchens, bathrooms and general decoration should now include base infrastructer updates.

Doing general DIY updates and not considering electrics, water and CH services is silly because updates on services tend to require some fabric damage, so get the bases sorted first or you could end up having to damage areas updated when you do.

There's also the big plus points which are to do with safety, peace of mind and most buyers of property are now wise to such. If you do not update services then you can expect to have x £1000's taken off the asking price to factor in a new buyers requirement to have a safe, current standard services system.

Another minor issue is that the modern day spec saves lives due to automatic disconnection of supply (ADS) on fault. Your system is more likely to cause harm / injury / death / fire.

 

[TheChump]

What's ADS??

Never heard of a Periodic Inspection Report until now... hopefully this is the first and last house move I'll do, so I've every incentive to get things right. £200 for a "hint of what's required"? How much for a detailed report? Blimey, I'm in the wrong job.

Couldn't agree more on getting the basics right. Biggest shame is that stricter regs weren't in force years ago, as until recently it seems any old Joe could sod around with their electrics with few legal come-backs.

Also have to lay blame at (a) the difficulty of finding a qualified, reasonable, reliable, English-speaking sparks in London, and (b) the number of builders both amateur and professional who've bought properties to make a quick buck, not to create a safe home. Hopefully the credit crunch has stopped that madness for a bit.

Oh well, live and learn. Thanks for your help gents.

 

[Chri5]

What's ADS??

Never heard of a Periodic Inspection Report until now... hopefully this is the first and last house move I'll do, so I've every incentive to get things right. £200 for a "hint of what's required"? How much for a detailed report? Blimey, I'm in the wrong job.

Please see the attachment for what a PIR does.

It does involve testing, and a full audit of the entire system- £200 for a days work including the report, expensive test equipment, the training, insurance and having to be part of a membership subscription isn't millionaire money. If you're not in London, if the job is easy (etc) may well bring the cost down,

http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/find-an-electrician/Dom_Cond_rep09.pdf

http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/guide_electricians.pdf

 

[Gees]

What's ADS??

Never heard of a Periodic Inspection Report until now... hopefully this is the first and last house move I'll do, so I've every incentive to get things right. £200 for a "hint of what's required"? How much for a detailed report? Blimey, I'm in the wrong job.

Please see the attachment for what a PIR does.

It does involve testing, and a full audit of the entire system- £200 for a days work including the report, expensive test equipment, the training, insurance and having to be part of a membership subscription isn't millionaire money. If you're not in London, if the job is easy (etc) may well bring the cost down,

http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/find-an-electrician/Dom_Cond_rep09.pdf

http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/guide_electricians.pdf[/QUOTE]

Has a person got to belong to a scheme to carry out a PIR?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The regulations also do not permit the use of rewire-able fuses by normal persons

If you're referring to 533.1.1.1 I think that only means you can't install a new 3036 fuseboard, not that a normal person is not allowed to replace a fuse-link.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Just spoke to a qualified electrician who informs me that provided the cupboard where the spurred consumer unit is located is lockable, it's within the regs, even in a shower room...

But then it's not accessible in an emergency.

 

[TheChump]

I believe the regs state it "has to be accessible using a tool". In an emergency, well, it's a cupboard door - you could just kick it open.

 

[skenk]

Or use the pull-cord/wall isolator if there is one.