Bathroom lighting RCD?

[stillp]

it might well not be acceptable for use in a shower cubicle if the manufacture said it wasn't

More to the point, it is not acceptable unless the manufacturer says that it is.

 

[securespark]

Usually three.

Three 2 pole isolators! Isn't that a bit of overkill?

 

[JohnW2]

More to the point, it is not acceptable unless the manufacturer says that it is.

Sort-of, but I was assuming that if their instructions were silent on the matter, one would ask them - and then only if their response was that it was not suitable (or, perhaps, that they "didn't know") would it not be suitable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

Manufacturers have a legal duty to provide information for safe use of their products, not just to answer questions that are asked.

 

[JohnW2]

Manufacturers have a legal duty to provide information for safe use of their products, not just to answer questions that are asked.

The instructions cannot be expected to be exhaustive, and I can't see that any law would/could expect them to be.

Would you really expect manufacturers to indicate if each of their products is safe to use in a garage, shed, conservatory, loftspace, garden, patio, bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, nursery, workshop etc. etc. etc. etc. - and for users to be expected to assume that it was not suitable for use in any environment not explicitly mentioned in the instructions??

Kind Regards, John

 

[dormermike]

I'm not totally sure what you're saying. The point is that, even if it is IP65, it might well not be acceptable for use in a shower cubicle if the manufacture said it wasn't. The RCD requirement relates to anything (new) in a bathroom, but there is no requirement to bring existing items up to that standard.

If the light is to be on the ceiling, and that ceiling is at least 2.25m above floor level, then that makes it a bit 'easier', since that is outside of the specified bathroom 'zones' - which, incidentally, would also mean that it was not work that had to be notified to your local authority.

Kind Regards, John

Ceiling is 2340mm from FFL.

Metal pipe feeding fixed shower head is 6" beneath the 240v light fitting. The shower head sprays downwards, in fairness.

Have asked for the make and model of the down lights.

Sounds like an RCD is not required (I want one anyway) and original sparks have done nothing wrong.

Still getting it checked out and the floor RCD (the old one) tested.

Thanks

 

[JohnW2]

Ceiling is 2340mm from FFL. Metal pipe feeding fixed shower head is 6" beneath the 240v light fitting. The shower head sprays downwards, in fairness.

OK. In that case, as I said, it's not 'notifiable' work, even if the light fitting is a new feature.

Sounds like an RCD is not required (I want one anyway) and original sparks have done nothing wrong.

If the light fitting (or some other one) has always been in that position, then, as I said, there is no requirement to retrospectively bring things up to current requirements by adding an RCD. However, if the light were a new feature (or if it had been moved from a different position), then there probably would be a requirement for it to be RCD-protected.

Kind Regards, John

 

[dormermike]

There was a single fitting previously. Now there are 7 recessed down lights. The light switch was originally a pull type located inside the bathroom and now it's a switch on the outside wall so that has changed too.

 

[stillp]

Would you really expect manufacturers to indicate if each of their products is safe to use in a garage, shed, conservatory, loftspace, garden, patio, bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, nursery, workshop etc. etc. etc. etc.

No, I wouldn't expect a list, but I would expect them to state something more general, such as "wet environments, e.g. bathrooms".

and for users to be expected to assume that it was not suitable for use in any environment not explicitly mentioned in the instructions??

I wouldn't expect it, but they certainly should.

 

[JohnW2]

... and for users to be expected to assume that it was not suitable for use in any environment not explicitly mentioned in the instructions??

I wouldn't expect it, but they certainly should.

I may be wrong, but I would think that the instructions which come with the great majority of electrical products are silent as regards the matter of what environments the products are suitable for. Do I therefore take it that you feel that consumers "should" assume that very few electrical items are suitable for use in any environment?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

There was a single fitting previously. Now there are 7 recessed down lights. The light switch was originally a pull type located inside the bathroom and now it's a switch on the outside wall so that has changed too.

Opinions will probably vary, but I would suspect that many/most would probably feel that that constitutes a lot more than just 'replacement of a light'. If one takes that view, then the downlights would count as 'new', in which case there probably would be a regulatory requirement for RCD protection.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I may be wrong, but I would think that the instructions which come with the great majority of electrical products are silent as regards the matter of what environments the products are suitable for. Do I therefore take it that you feel that consumers "should" assume that very few electrical items are suitable for use in any environment?

It depends on the items.

As you know, no switches state they are suitable for bathrooms. Therefore we cannot assume that they are as far as the manufacturer is concerned.
If you fit them in a bathroom and they corrode then that is down to you.

Things such as lights which are IP65 (or IPX4 or X5) I would expect it to be stated that they are suitable for zone 1 and 2 - or outdoors.
Such things are usually sold as "bathroom lighting" or "exterior lighting".

If they are not then they probably are not.

 

[JohnW2]

As you know, no switches state they are suitable for bathrooms. Therefore we cannot assume that they are as far as the manufacturer is concerned.

Yes, but stillp seems to be making a general statement about "legal duties". I doubt that (m)any switches explicitly state that they are suitable for anywhere - so how is the user/consumer meant to interpret that? By analogy with what you're saying about bathrooms .... !!

As I wrote to stillp, if the MIs are silent as regards suitable environments, then (if one is concerned) one should ask.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, but stillp seems to be making a general statement about "legal duties". I doubt that (m)any switches state that they are suitable for anywhere - so how is the user/consumer meant to interpret that. By analogy with what you're saying about bathrooms .... !!

By presuming that they are not suitable - as far as the manufacturer is concerned.
That is they have not manufactured them to be so.
They could, of course, make "bathroom switches" but they don't.

As I said, if you want to fit them there that is up to you but it should not be advised.

 

[JohnW2]

By presuming that they are not suitable - as far as the manufacturer is concerned.

So most switches are not suitable for use anywhere? I don't need to tell you that that's just plain daft!

As I said, if you want to fit them there that is up to you but it should not be advised.

Yes, but in the context of this thread, it's not as simple as that, is it? I thought we were talking about regulatory requirements (a.k.a 'what is allowed', or 'what BS7671 requires') and the answer is/was that the regs require that the item in question be 'suitable for the environment' (per manufacturer's opinion). Nothing in the regs, nor anything that you or I have written in this thread, suggests that someone can 'contract out' of that regulation on the basis that it is "up to them".

Kind Regards, John