Blagdon Powersafe Outdoor Wall Socket Kit

[riveralt]

Extract from the installation instructions...

IMPORTANT: If this product is installed using a Blagdon Powersafe armoured garden power supply fitted
with a flexible lead to a three pin plug, in conjunction with a circuit breaker as recommended in the
installation guide. It would not therefore be deemed to be a permanent part of the house wiring and
would not fall within the scope of Part P of the building regulations. However if the product is wired
directly into a fixed wiring spur, it will fall under part P of the building regulations and must be installed by
a qualified electrician or in consultation with a building control officer.

Clearly the manufacturers and their lawyers seem to think when fitted as suggested it is not notifiable under Part P.
So that is the end of this story

 

[ericmark]

* 2.5 mm2 cables are too large for standard 13 A plugs

It's a bit of a tight squeeze, but you can get 2.5mm² in...

I would agree but it was a quote from In-service .... book on PAT testing.

Extract from the installation instructions...

a three pin plug, in conjunction with a circuit breaker as recommended in the
installation guide.

So it seems Plugged in does not need notifying as not fixed. My understanding was once fixed in any way then it was fixed. We live and learn!

 

[securespark]

Did you spot the section (approx 4mins in) saying that the cable can be buried or fixed to a fence......?

Yeah, I did. The 14th Ed. regs specifically rule out fences as support for cable (B126), but I have not found anything in the 17th, although there are other more general regs covering it.

Can't remember the max Zs for a 1362 13A fuse, but it's huge!

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Extract from the installation instructions...

IMPORTANT: If this product is installed using a Blagdon Powersafe armoured garden power supply fitted with a flexible lead to a three pin plug, in conjunction with a circuit breaker as recommended in the installation guide.

That's not even english. The first 'sentence' is a dangling subordinate clause.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In that case, a TV mounted on a wall is fixed too.

Of course it is.

And the cable is fixed as well.

I never said it wasn't.

Then there is little point in arguing that the socket is not, because the fixed cable brings the job into the scope of Part P.

Quite frankly I see little difference between this plug arrangement and a wall mounted TV (with the cable clipped to the skirting board and architrave to keep it tidy) insofar as they are both connections to fixed electrical equipment.

And therefore both within the scope of Part P.

Simples.

To pretend that that's not notifiable is interpreting part P far more generously than even I would.

It's not pretence and it's not a generous interpretation - read 3(c) in Schedule 4.

I see the fact that this manufacturer is allowed to get away with it as vindicating my relaxed interpretation of part P.

I'm sure you do.

But your views on this topic are demonstrably irrational to the point of being utterly barmy.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thats a good point, would installing a TV on the wall of a 'special location' such as a kitchen come under part p, probly not as it is a pre-fabricated item and requires no wiring,

It is FIXED.

It is ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT.

“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter;

PART P ELECTRICAL SAFETY ... The requirements of this part apply only to electrical installations which are...

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

however what if you were to cut the plug of to push the wire though a worktop, then wired a new one on

It would make no difference.

.........what about wiring an aerial socket in a kitchen, would that be notifiable?

Can you find an exemption for it in Schedule 4?

Questions questions......

Answers answers......

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Extract from the installation instructions...

IMPORTANT: If this product is installed using a Blagdon Powersafe armoured garden power supply fitted
with a flexible lead to a three pin plug, in conjunction with a circuit breaker as recommended in the
installation guide. It would not therefore be deemed to be a permanent part of the house wiring and
would not fall within the scope of Part P of the building regulations. However if the product is wired
directly into a fixed wiring spur, it will fall under part P of the building regulations and must be installed by
a qualified electrician or in consultation with a building control officer.

Clearly the manufacturers and their lawyers seem to think when fitted as suggested it is not notifiable under Part P.

Clearly the manufacturers and their lawyers are unable to understand that the requirement to make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury, has nothing to do with the requirement to notify certain work.

Here it is in black and white:

Where does it say that it only applies to notifiable work?

Where does it say that it only applies to permanent installations?

Look at the promo video, 0:27 in - does it not show that the kit includes drills, screws, screwdriver, wall-plugs and cable cleats? Why, if the intention is not that the installer will use those to FIX things?

1:58 - the caption says "... wall brackets & fixings included"

2:03 - we see her fixing the bracket for the socket to the wall.

2:37 - we see her fixing the cable to the wall.

4:09 - we see more fixings in another kit.

4:45 - we see her fixing the cable to the fence.


“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter;

Can they really not read that?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So it seems Plugged in does not need notifying as not fixed.

Fixed does not automatically mean notifiable.

My understanding was once fixed in any way then it was fixed.

I would have thought that was the understanding of anybody with a reading age into double figures....

 

[bernardgreen]

It looks like the sockets are "hung" on the bracket that is the only part fixed to the wall. So it could be said that the sockets are not fixed.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) I believe that they are fixed to the wall by means of the bracket.

2) I wonder if the instructions admit the use of them just lying around?

3) In any event 1 & 2 are irrelevant, because the product includes items called fixings, and the video, presumably of someone following the instructions, shows the cable being fixed to the wall.

4) It is, therefore, something which meets the definition of "electrical installation" in the Building Regulations, neither that definition nor the definition of the applicability of Part P make any exemption for non-permanent installations, so the maker is plainly wrong to say "It would not therefore be deemed to be a permanent part of the house wiring and would not fall within the scope of Part P of the building regulations".

 

[riveralt]

1) I believe that they are fixed to the wall by means of the bracket.

2) I wonder if the instructions admit the use of them just lying around?

3) In any event 1 & 2 are irrelevant, because the product includes items called fixings, and the video, presumably of someone following the instructions, shows the cable being fixed to the wall.

4) It is, therefore, something which meets the definition of "electrical installation" in the Building Regulations, neither that definition nor the definition of the applicability of Part P make any exemption for non-permanent installations, so the maker is plainly wrong to say "It would not therefore be deemed to be a permanent part of the house wiring and would not fall within the scope of Part P of the building regulations".

These, of course, are your personal views and assumptions and it can only be determined whether or not you are right or wrong in a court of law. If you feel SO strongly about this possible breach of the law then perhaps you should pass the information to your Local Trading Standards.

Since the manufacturers instructions clearly state what they state any DIYer following these instructions would not be breaking any law. Furthermore, while I do not like the design nor would contemplate fitting one myself, it has got to be better than some of the death defying DIY outside socket installations I come across everyday.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Do you really think that it is only my "personal view" that the Building Regulations define “electrical installation” as fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter?

Do you really think it is only my "personal view" that if you use cleats or clips to fix a cable to the wall that you've then got a fixed electrical cable?

If you feel SO strongly about this possible breach of the law then perhaps you should pass the information to your Local Trading Standards.

Installing one does not necessarily breach the law, but it begs the question of how the person installing it will ensure that he does comply with the law.

The law requires him to make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

Can he do this without testing?

What if he has a PME supply and he takes power to an outbuilding which has a water supply?

What if the fence he attaches the cable to is too flimsy?

What if rubber cable from the house to the outside socket is not suitable for his particular environment?

Not only can there be doubts about whether installing one of these does comply with the law, it really, really is absolutely clear from the unambiguous definition of "electrical installation" in the Building Regulations that the law does apply.

If you think otherwise I'd be interested to know the following:

1) What it is about "fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter" which you think is unclear, ambiguous, or open to differing interpretations.

2) How a cable cleated or clipped to a wall might reasonably be said to not be fixed.

And yes - I am going to make a complaint to the ASA.

 

[ericmark]

h. The installation of fixed equipment is within the scope of Part P, even where the final connection is by a 13A plug and socket. However, work is notifiable only if it involves fixed wiring and the installation of a new circuit or the extension of a circuit in a kitchen or special location or associated with a special installation.

This is from the BR_PDF_ADP_2006 which is the official document found on the government web site. This to me says there is no difference between plugged in and using a FCU.

However BAS has in the past pointed out there is another document also on Part P and the two don't seem to say exactly the same thing.

So down to nitty gritty. If some one is injured or killed from the installation who has broken the law? And who will end up in court? We all know it will be the person who did the work not the manufacturer. Maybe the guy doing the work could take the manufacturer to court however most manufacturers have a get out clause and I would guess it would be put down as a printing error or similar.

When I made a web page at college I made some mistakes. However now I don't have access and to correct or delete is impossible. The same on anything written on forums like this. I was banned from one forum and I was unable to remove any of my posts.

It is possible Blagdon know of the mistake and are unable to correct it? I have never tried to remove a U-Tube post but I would think only the administrators or the poster can remove it. And the poster may be some one no longer in Blagdon's employ.

This is the whole problem with internet. Often one loses control. Only if one buys the product could one be sure there is not a error warning explaining that the work is notifiable.

There have been many court cases where manufacturers have been required to modify what they claim. "A Mars a day helps you work, rest and play." is a good example. It was used for years before they were told to prove it or remove it.

And why are we worried anyway? We all know most people will never bother with Part P anyway so it is a little pointless.

 

[riveralt]

If you think otherwise I'd be interested to know the following:

1) What it is about "fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter" which you think is unclear, ambiguous, or open to differing interpretations.

2) How a cable cleated or clipped to a wall might reasonably be said to not be fixed.

And yes - I am going to make a complaint to the ASA.

BAS - calm down dear.... if you excuse the pun you seem to have a fixation with the term fixed.

Clearly the company that is supplying the goods are happy that it meets all the regulations and unlike you I am not really bothered to argue against them here or debate what might or might be the correct definition of fixed. It is a pointless exercise. As I said before that is a matter for the courts to determine.

The ASA is a toothless tiger. I predict that they will say the company has not misled the public and if you feel they have broken the law in anyway then you should contact Trading Standards. They in turn will say the company have not broken any law.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Clearly the company that is supplying the goods are happy that it meets all the regulations

Indeed they are.

But it is not they who are trying to dismiss my objections to what they say as being "my opinion", it is you.

So will you now please answer these:

1) What it is about "fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter" which you think is unclear, ambiguous, or open to differing interpretations.

2) How a cable cleated or clipped to a wall might reasonably be said to not be fixed.

and unlike you I am not really bothered to argue against them here or debate what might or might be the correct definition of fixed.

That's not true - you are bothered. If you were not you would not have posted.

The ASA is a toothless tiger.

Tell that to the companies who have been told to change their advertisements.

I predict that they will say the company has not misled the public

I'll let you know.

and if you feel they have broken the law in anyway then you should contact Trading Standards. They in turn will say the company have not broken any law.

I'm not aware of any laws they might be breaking, other than advertising ones.