Blocked downpipe turns out to end 5" below ground not connected to anything. What should I do?

[Hugh Jaleak]

Does seem unusual to just terminate a rainwater pipe into the soil, next to the wall, but without digging the surrounding area up to look for any sign of a drain, it has to be assumed it was never connected. I'd be looking to providing some kind of drain to remove the water from the house walls, and channel it to a safer point away from the building. You dont need a surveyor, any Builder worth his salt will be able to lay some drain into a soakaway, or if there is a suitable drain nearby, join to that. (Not if you're on a septic tank though!)

 

[KenGMac]

and glass tell-tales have been installed to monitor for possible subsidence. Concern about subsidence at some point led to having the house underpinned just in case. It just seems so stupid to have such a naff rainwater drainage system

This would tend to point to the involvement of an Engineer or Insurer, especially if the property was indeed underpinned lots and lots of £££ ??? + [old fashioned] glass tell-tales again at a cost?

Where I find things odd? is that it is normal standard practice to Instruct a CCTV survey of any drain within say 5 / 10 m. of the areas considered to be subsiding.

What you may wish to consider is, introduce water butts at the base of the down pipes, fit overflow flexible piping to the water butts, so as the butt water level gets near the top the overflow starts to remove the water from the butt, lead the flexible hoses on to the ground to discharge, another trick is to puncture small holes into the flexible pipe so the water discharges slowly and not in one rush from the end of the overflow pipe.

OK the above is a very, very temporary measure designed to relieve the ground at the base of the down pipes from further saturation, and it buys you some time to decide on what to do as a long term fix? underground and soak-away, provided the soak-away is in a permeable area of soil?? It is not designed as a long term fix. the other advantage is that you can monitor the "puddles" in the basement at the same time?? and lastly it is a fairly cheap temporary fix??

Ken

 

[DownpipeToNowhere]

Does seem unusual to just terminate a rainwater pipe into the soil, next to the wall, but without digging the surrounding area up to look for any sign of a drain, it has to be assumed it was never connected. I'd be looking to providing some kind of drain to remove the water from the house walls, and channel it to a safer point away from the building. You dont need a surveyor, any Builder worth his salt will be able to lay some drain into a soakaway, or if there is a suitable drain nearby, join to that. (Not if you're on a septic tank though!)

Yes, there is a 110mm drainage pipe nearby that seems to do nothing (never seen water come out of it, although there is some algae on the stonework below it). I bought a self propelling pressure washer drain unblocker and put it in the pipe, thinking it must be connected in some way to the downpipe. All that happened was a lot of earth, snails and then finally sand came out. The 110mm plastic drainage pipe must have been laid in the 1980s by the underpinners, probably because they damaged a similar dimensioned glazed earthenware pipe that must have been there before they did the underpinning. Photo attached of the drainage pipe with respect to the downpipe.

I will now have to buy a borescope and try to determine what the function of this 110mm plastic drainage pipe is. My new theory is: it was 4pm knocking off time one afternoon in 1980, and in a hurry to finish the job, the underpinners didn't bother to connect the downpipe to the 110mm diameter drainage pipe, and just put back the earth and stones - who would find out? - if true, it has taken 39 years to come to light! I will post further as new evidence comes to light. The puddling in the cellar, only after heavy rain storms, is probably due to a P trap on the other side of the house being full of sediment (a gully grate stops leaves and bigger items getting into it) but water was observed to go down the gully too slowly, causing it to back up against the stone work. There are also of few inches of missing or cracked bevelled rendering at ground level that connects a cracked concrete back yard (horizontal) and to the stone wall (vertical) nearby the gully and P trap full of sediment that caused a small amount of water to back up sometimes.

 

[DownpipeToNowhere]

KenGMac, thanks. That is all excellent advice. With 7 rainwater downpipes to investigate, several of which have higher up branches as well, which can also potentially leak, it will be some time before I know what the cause of the occasional puddles in the cellar is.
My father didn't need to have house underpinned, indeed the neighbour of our semi-detached property refused to have his half underpinned (his father in law built the house in 1915 and he thought my father was paranoid about minor cracks indicating subsidence, and more to the point he didn't have a lot of spare cash to spend on underpinning just in case there was subsidence). The glass tell-tales have remained unbroken for 39 years, so I guess there isn't a subsidence problem. Of course with our neighbour's half not being underpinned, if there was a problem, his house would drag us down the hill with him. The neighbour, not the same impecunious one, also has problems with damp in his cellar. I will update this thread as the investigation progresses. Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Pipe in the wall may possibly be there to drain any build up of water behind the wall, (which could have been an acute possibility given the rainwater downpipes didn't go anywhere!), and was never connected or intended to be connected to the downpipe. I suspect you may be right in that it was a replacement for a previous clayware pipe.

If the discharge from this pipe isn't going to have an adverse effect on the area underneath, and/or wall below, it may well be worth looking at connecting the downpipe to it, under the patio. Just provide some form of drainage for any accumulation of water behind the wall.

 

[cwhaley]

Wish I had taken pictures at the time but my drainpipe did the same -- down the side of the house and into the tarmac driveway.

When we had the driveway dug up and a new one laid, we found the pipe went about a foot into the soil and that was it. No soakaway, no channel, no pipes, etc. As a result, the mortar between the foundation blocks was pretty much non-existent and they were visibly damaged from years of rain water pooling under the surface. It also explained why the wall the other side (hallway) would get moldy in the winter.

Had the pipe go into a proper drain and sloped away into a soakaway. Not had issues since.

 

[DownpipeToNowhere]

Update. CWHaley, thanks for that helpful info.
All posters: Have not decided on a solution yet, although I don't think my downpipe to nowhere is the cause of the damp, and the light puddling that occurs after heavy rain storms, in the cellar. The downpipe to nowhere is about 8 feet away from the cellar and is not up slope from it. Measurements indicate about 8 litres of water gets collected after the heavy rain that leads to puddling in the cellar.

I have now found a much more suspicious cause, quite by accident, while doing a completely unrelated task (removing a plank of wood from a shed that was infested with wood lice - it enabled me to see a 10" long hidden fracture in another round cast iron downpipe that is up slope from the cellar). It may not be the only cause of the damp in the cellar (thanks to the poster who suggested Edwardians/Victorians did not use waterproof membranes below concrete floors).

I will try to start a new thread, if that is more helpful, to deal with the most likely cause of the damp in the cellar: how should I repair fractured 2.5" round cast iron rainwater downpipe connected to a socket of a vitrified clay pipe, a socket whose OD is about 5" to 5 1/2": how do I ensure the repair solution enables low cost recovery of silt and moss at ground level while using traditional materials (prefer metal downpipes above ground). The first photo shows the view of the downpipe after removing wood lice infected plank, and the second of why the fracture was never spotted.

If it is a bit defeatist to assume moss will end up in the underground drainage system, then it is because I think the birds drop moss in the gutters (not the only way it gets there), and being cunning blighters, will drop it threw holes in any balloon guards. I worry about sediment getting into the underground drainage system and causing backup of water in the downpipe, and the freeze-thaw cycle in winter fracturing the pipe, although I don't doubt the pipe is close enough to the shed, where a misplaced hammer blow by the builder putting on the shed cladding many years ago could have caused the pipe fracture.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

How is the cast connected to the clay? Best course of action I'd say is to replace the damaged cast section in it's entirety, worst case scenario would be you have to cut the clay back slightly and make a new connection there. If you can get a photo of the existing connection between the cast and clay, it may help judge that situation.

Cast can fracture through age, also is it's a rigid connection to the drain, (i.e. mortared in), then this wont help absorb any slight movement that may occur. Same principle when iron gas/water mains fracture.

 

[DownpipeToNowhere]

Hugh Jaleak (LOL at your moniker) thanks. I was going to start a new thread... The downpipe is 2.5" OD (actual is 2.6" something but I assume the layers of paint mean it really is 2.5"). It then becomes about 3" OD (I assume there is a cast iron sleeve of some sort it fits into - see first photo how downpipe widens near base), a sleeve that fits into (I can't imagine how) a clay pipe socket that is about 5" to 6" in outer diameter. See 1st photo below. There is a vertical cast iron vented soil pipe about 5' away to the right, so it would make sense if the fractured rainwater pipe connected to some sort of underground vitrified clay pipe system that has a gentle incline and that connects both systems, and indeed there is another rainwater downpipe about 8 ft to the left, which might be connected to the same system. I assume even in Edwardian times they used traps when connecting rainwater downpipes to a drainage system that also connects to a vented soil pipe.

I can't get my head around how with a fixed, rigid, hard-to-dismantle cast iron downpipe system that one can have a sort of lift-out, easy to clean trap. It makes no sense to have a gully grate in a flower bed, although doing so would mean the grate could be lifted off and one of those high priced silt scoop grabs could be used to clean it. I am not really sure what I am dealing with without excavating further (and by removing support for a rigid underground vitrified clay pipe drainage system I might damage it by excavating) - is the exposed 5" to 6" outer diameter of the socket part a sort of inverted T connection? Any help appreciated. If I have to cut off the clay pipe socket, can I use a multitool grout cutter or do I have to buy a proper angle grinder? How do I undo the socket and spigot joint on the next section of cast iron down pipe? Is it likely to be soldered with lead? Do I have to use a blow torch on it to dismantle it non destructively? Is there any way to break a mortar joint without damaging the vitrified clay pipe socket? Is there any special tape I can use to temporarily seal the fracture while I get help waiting for a long term solution? Of course I am keeping an open mind about there being additional causes of damp in the cellar but getting this problem sorted out would be a start. I suppose the design of any solution depends on what caused the fracture, and I don't know that yet. I have a 15 metre long wifi borescope, so maybe it is time to deploy that. Any help appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

There is an horribly greasy(very) none setting tape you can buy in a roll, which would seal that up temporarily - sorry I cannot remember its name. Maybe Denso tape? Where it joins the clay pipe, I would expect it just to be sealed with mortar. Rope pushed in to make up the gap, then filled up with mortar.

Where cast iron pipes were joint, I seem to remember they just hammered lead in to the gap to fill it up.

To fix it permanently, cut the cast iron pipe off square - angle grinder carefully or hacksaw. Then install a short bit of plastic. The easy way to get the cast pipe out of the mortar, is to drill numerous holes in the mortar until it frees. Then make up the gap as before, rope with mortar on top into the clay.

 

[DownpipeToNowhere]

HB, many thanks. You have given me the confidence to have a go at it myself. I might order cast iron downpipe with ears to replace the existing (replace like with like to preserve appearance) and cut it to the required length, at least 114 cms. I won't know the rope thickness required until I actually try to fit the new pipe. The only problem with this solution, if there is an inherent design fault in this Edwardian era solution, is that the fracture may recur. The business model of that era of annually sending low cost labour up ladders under inferior health and safety rules to unblock gutters, downpipes and underground drainage systems no longer works: the current business model requires 20% VAT to be charged on top, to say nothing of using far more expensive equipment (scaffolding, cherry pickers, drain cameras, high skilled labour charges), which makes doing it annually completely impossible except for millionaires. Modern era solutions maybe require use of modern materials (plastic), which I am not so keen on. Maybe I have to compromise a bit or just accept high maintenance costs (pipe ruptures). Also, the Edwardians maybe didn't have as much rainfall as we seem to be having (climate change?). Sorry to be such a Luddite trying to avoid plastic (I am always wary about users of modern materials short changing one by worsening the value proposition - plastics usually degrade over time - the makers of such products maybe are playing with the shorter life of these products to increase their wealth at my expense, I wonder?

 

[bobasd]

with ref to the pics of the cracked RWP pipe(s) and its connection to the clay hub - for best practice you will have to remove the full length of pipe from hopper or gutter outlet and, after examination, either remove the damaged bit of pipe or skip the whole length, and replace with new CI or plastic.

at the hub, dig down and expose the horizontal piece - cut it at a convenient place and connect a trap to pick up the RWP.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

HB, many thanks. You have given me the confidence to have a go at it myself.

I wonder if that drain might have been blocked too and the lower part of the pipe filled up with water, which froze and split that pipe?

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Looking at that, I suspect the cast pipe was simply placed into the clay socket, a piece of sacking or similar wrapped around to prevent debris getting into the drain, and the joint sealed with mortar. It's doubtful that joint will come apart without breaking something, (clay probably), so you would be best cutting the clay at a convenient point, and redoing that section. Modern jointing methods will allow some flexibility, so going forward, any movement should be accommodated. (Going to be pedantic, but should point out, that old drain is 'Salt Glazed Stoneware', the new clay drainage is Vitrified Clay.)

Unlikely a silt trap was ever fitted on that, a direct connection was made to the drain, which would lead to a soakaway. Any rainwater connection to a combined sewer in that era would have been via a trapped gulley. The presence of soil pipes nearby is probably unconnected, the drains would have been laid as required to suit the building layout, and rainwater and foul drains passing over/under each other where required.

Dye testing can help trace drain runs, but only if the dye can be seen downstream. Given it seems likely these rainwater pipes are heading for a soakaway, dye testing would probably be a waste of time, so it leaves sonar tracing, (expensive), or a bit of old fashioned digging. Provided you only clear the soil from above the pipes, there shouldn't be an issue, you only need to ascertain the route, not the condition.

I'd get a 9" angle grinder for cutting the clay pipes, anything smaller will struggle, (bear in mind the pipe wall is at least 1/2" thick), and then swapping the stone disc for a metal disc, should allow you to cut the cast above the socket if it aspires the cast has been joined with run lead. Not sure what you mean by 'high priced silt scoop grabs', but Wickes do a wet vac for about £45 which is ideal for cleaning out gullies!

 

[DownpipeToNowhere]

for best practice you will have to remove the full length of pipe from hopper or gutter outlet

Yes, I see there is no way to slot in sideways the new section of cast iron down pipe without removing the entire downpipe above the damaged section. Cast iron downpipe isn't exactly conveniently flexible, is it? I need about 4" of vertical clearance to get the section of pipe in. The rainwater cast iron downpipe that includes the fracture is the one in the middle with two successive swan necks connected to the gutter.

Having to disconnect it all would turn a £100 'cost of parts' job into a £3000 one perhaps if I have to hire scaffolding, etc. since the swan necks protrude out over the shed roof, and the shed roof is not great support for a ladder (the builder probably did not use good quality marine plywood for the roof and may have economised with some sort of chip board covered with a thin veneers of better looking wood that hide the structural weakness).

I am right out of my DIY comfort zone having to take down the entire cast iron downpipe right up to the gutter but on the other hand the professional builder who installed that plastic guttering and downpipe to the left of the picture (about 30 years ago?) has maybe not served us well other than to keep the bills down (he acted the way he did I assume under pressure from my father to keep costs down, which pleased my father, but my father didn't understand or know about the short cuts taken to achieve the desired bill). As a non expert in these matters, so I can be wrong, I think the arrangement to drop water from a jerkin roof on to a tiled roof below is a bit Heath Robinson (I am sure the original Edwardian era rainwater collection system was better than that). Second, the shoe of the plastic down pipe above the shed roof is held on with a rusting screw (not solvent welded?). Third, the gutter on the shed roof is screwed through the asphalt into the shed roof (I can't think of a better way to promote water ingress into the wood of the roof below the asphalt). Fourth, the pitch of the gutter on to the shed roof causes water to rush over the edge of the gutter below if it rains very hard (I have sanded off all the resulting algae and black mould that was on the wood below this gutter, although the designed arrangement probably works about 80% of the time as intended). Fifth, the gutter below the shed roof is attached to the plastic elbow that disappears into the shed by another rusting screw instead of being solvent welded.

I have doubts whether the Edwardian era cast iron downpipe inside the shed, which I assume is connected to the same salt glazed stoneware drainage system as the fractured cast iron downpipe about 8' to 10' away to the right, was designed to cope with a builder installing a rainwater collection system that effectively collects moss from a) the shed roof b) the tiled roof and c) the jerkin roof (also tiled but higher up). It was maybe originally only meant to collect rainwater from one of these roofs. The difficulty of cost effectively cleaning these high up gutters without scaffolding or without a very long-reach expensive cherry picker, one that would have to be with mega anti-tipping stabilisers and be situated outside the garden walls, may be the cause of moss getting into the underground drainage system, for the plastic pipe that disappears into the shed is connected to the exposed part of this Edwardian era system. At 800' above sea level and in an area of high winds, the small amount of moss on the shed roof (only in one sheltered corner) may mean the rest of it has been blown off into the shed gutter.

I wonder if that drain might have been blocked too and the lower part of the pipe filled up with water, which froze and split that pipe?

I am 85% certain you are right. See pictures of the moss. Also, a blockage means water probably only backs up and seeps out of the fracture in heavy rain, which agrees with what I see in the cellar: light puddling only after heavy rain.

Below: some moss in the shed gutter

Looking at that, I suspect the cast pipe was simply placed into the clay socket, a piece of sacking or similar wrapped around to prevent debris getting into the drain, and the joint sealed with mortar. It's doubtful that joint will come apart without breaking something, (clay probably), so you would be best cutting the clay at a convenient point, and redoing that section. Modern jointing methods will allow some flexibility, so going forward, any movement should be accommodated. (Going to be pedantic, but should point out, that old drain is 'Salt Glazed Stoneware', the new clay drainage is Vitrified Clay.)

Unlikely a silt trap was ever fitted on that, a direct connection was made to the drain, which would lead to a soakaway. Any rainwater connection to a combined sewer in that era would have been via a trapped gulley. The presence of soil pipes nearby is probably unconnected, the drains would have been laid as required to suit the building layout, and rainwater and foul drains passing over/under each other where required.

Dye testing can help trace drain runs, but only if the dye can be seen downstream. Given it seems likely these rainwater pipes are heading for a soakaway, dye testing would probably be a waste of time, so it leaves sonar tracing, (expensive), or a bit of old fashioned digging. Provided you only clear the soil from above the pipes, there shouldn't be an issue, you only need to ascertain the route, not the condition.

I'd get a 9" angle grinder for cutting the clay pipes, anything smaller will struggle, (bear in mind the pipe wall is at least 1/2" thick), and then swapping the stone disc for a metal disc, should allow you to cut the cast above the socket if it aspires the cast has been joined with run lead. Not sure what you mean by 'high priced silt scoop grabs', but Wickes do a wet vac for about £45 which is ideal for cleaning out gullies!

Thanks for all that excellent advice. I really like the Wickes wet and dry vac idea: I could install a downpipe with an access hole. I will have to look into whether 1450 watts is enough power to suck out sediment and moss. The £125 gully sediment scoop grab I was thinking of is too big (3" diameter is the smallest one can get?). I even considered soup ladles with a long handle. I have added salt glazed stoneware to my building vocab. Thanks for that correction. Will update this thread as the repair progresses, a repair I can't start on this week. I don't believe all the damp in the cellar is caused by this one pipe fracture, but it is a start.