boiler capped off - dont beleive engineer - what can i do ?

[corgiman]

Spot on Oilski

Even if the original poster had refused to allow him to cap it off he would have have to have informed Transco that there was a dangerous appliance within the property and they would have cut him off in the road.

If you get a second opinion and it turns out that the second company says its fine you do have some recourse to the original engineer with the THEFT ACT as (if it can be proved he had intent) he may have been trying to con you, contact the Trading standards as if he was doing this the chances are he has done it before and t hey will have a record.

I must say I find this unlikely as most CORGI reg people have the safety aspect of the job pummeled into them. and look at this way if it was spilling it could be that the bloke saved your life, better to be cold than dead isn't it.

 

[John.B]

Got to agree lads, If he was new to area and was n't sure about who to get why didn't he get British Gas as they had already serviced it in previous years.

 

[ollski]

Got to agree lads, If he was new to area and was n't sure about who to get why didn't he get British Gas as they had already serviced it in previous years.

Hes not that new John, he has been running a co alarm in the room for 3 years

 

[John.B]

Yes I think we all get the picture now. Truth outs in the end does n't it.

 

[snapper01]

Some interesting points made there, thanks guys. I admit it was a bit of a rant but it does seem strange that this should happen given the evidence below.
From reading this website my diagnosis was partially blocked pilot which I did state to him after the condemnation.
Please forgive any typo's my fingers are frozen!

This was the last job the original guy did yesterday; as he left he said he's off on his hols for 2 weeks! Yeah thanks!!
So I have a powergen eng coming next week @£70 callout (they ARE current gas sup) and for ref BG wont come unless I take out a service contract@ £300PA or pay a similar call out, not that desperate, yet.

Some more info for consideration: (due to being discon I can now peer at and dismantle parts I couldn’t before)
Baxi bermuda pw2 /552 boiler / fire installed replacing existing (unknown) boiler, it is fitted in my dining room chimney in a standard 3 bed semi, fitted in 1983 by BG and serviced annually (?) by BG, I have the original invoice for installation and last service report from 2002. I know its old but it was perfectly functional.
The service report states 'ventilation satisfactory - yes, flue satisfactory - yes, appliance sound - yes'. I also have 2 (corgi) check sheets from when the cavity insulation was fitted 2 months back, they tested the flue with the boiler running with smoke matches before and after the job and there was no problems. I was in the room but didn’t actually see where the smoke went - they are corgi and they said fine!

Flue:
The original invoice states 'the flue from the boiler will be taken to atmosphere using: (handwritten) existing flue liner if suitable' flue fits snugly into the adapter plate 6 inch or so above heat ex. Flue o/s dia is 5.5 inch. The space around the flue is blocked up with insulation so any smoke / fumes went up the flue not around it. I pulled some of this out and could see that the flue goes up at least to the ceiling where it disappears round a kink in the chimney, there are e no fireplaces upstairs but the chimney breast drops from being 6 foot wide to 2 foot.

bomb test - the bomb was placed on a bit of metal from his pocket ontop of the heat ex without the boiler running, everything went up the correct way.

Smoke match test - boiler and fire running full tilt, firefront not fitted.
Doors and windows shut, vent in wall so open I could and still can shove both my arms through it together (what size does it legally need to be?) match held next to the fires rectangular flue where it fits into the boiler cowl. No test on the fire or boiler alone was performed. There are no extractors in the house just another identical but open chimney in the next room. - The only source of heat currently. He only performed one test in front of me and didn’t intro any more ventilation and retest is the wrong?

Heat x - seems quite clean, I gave it a quick brushing and only a few bits of rust and gritty material fell away, I pulled out the 2 plates from ontop and the middle of the heat x and used a bottle brush between fins, again no significant debris, my highly technical test blowing from above I felt the draft below in all corners of the boiler cavity so its not completely clogged up. For 20 years service I’d say its in very good nick.

The cut off:
He didn't 'ask' permission but did say if he didn’t discon he would notify the gas board who would turn off the supply in the street immediately, he left a notice on the fire front and a form I had to sign. Does that make it legal?

Banter - he wasn’t for talking throughout and didn't like my questioning the cut-off procedure and asking about what to do to get reconnected.
Liar ?- ok maybe a bit strong but he was totally unhelpful and it seemed like he'd decided to discon it before he'd arrived.

Me 'competent' - If I was Corgi reg I wouldn’t have called him out, my chosen career does however prove I have a working knowledge of aero / fluid dynamics, electrics and electronics (not for telling where on this forum but 'aeroplanes'.... is a good a clue)

Corgi regulations:
Where can joe public view all the corgi regulations to which their property should comply? Its nowhere obvious.
If I refuse to sign something in my line of work based on safety grounds or not I have to back it up with chapter and verse from a QA controlled document or risk being hung drawn and quartered

 

[John.B]

Thanks for reply Snapper01. Normal procedure if an appliance fails test is to keep appliance on full and retry after a further 5 mins. Your flue liner if they re-used original as suggested could be over 22 years old. Normal procedure is to replace with every new appliance. Flue liner could be perforated! I think you have done the right thing though by getting a second opinion. You will then probably know if your engineer has highlighted a problem or not. What price your safety! By the way this last post was much more informative and gave a lot more relevant info. Thanks

 

[ollski]

Its a pain but unfortunately the spillage test sounds correct to the manufacturers instructions. There is now a reason to try a spillage test on each seperate part of the appliance now that there is an authorized procedure to allow the operation of the boiler with the fire disconnected, but its not an obligation as he carried out the test correctly to the manufacturers instructions. Unless he gave you a definitive answer to the cause of it spilling you need to get it retested and investigated, but unfortunately aservice merely gives you a snapshot of the appliance at a given point in time and it may pass a spillage test tomorrow. It did fail the spillage however and is 'immediately dangerous'.

 

[snapper01]

Thanks guys just to clarify, please answer for me the questions above and ideally the following: only in accordance with the corgi regs of course

A 'flue may be perforated' so could therefore need replacing, I know this is hardly scientific but it is very clean and shiny outside and only slightly duller inside for the first 8 feet or so, so may not be 22 years old - was my guy right to tell me that this boiler cannot be vented to atmos horizontally through the o/s wall behind it ? I guess this would be a wholeload cheeper than the 1200 notes for a vertical one.

B Had he done the spillage test on the boiler alone and it had passed, he could he have condemmed the fire alone ?

C what size should the room vent be? is there a min size / airflow rate? and is it a must that it is sleeved from vent face to vent vent face (the sleeve stops about 1 inch short either side but would prevent falling debris from affecting it he said it has to be face to face.

thanks again and as you have all rightly said 'Safety first' is the right way to be. I just got the impression this guy had his salespitch and safety confused, a bit of job creation if you catch my drift

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

Yes a refusal results in a call to Transco and I would say fine if it was me because I would be sure of my testing, buuuuuuuuuuuuuttttttttttttt, if I was a bad apple just trying it on to get a new boiler job then maybe mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[DP]

>> I know this is hardly scientific but it is very clean and shiny outside and only slightly duller inside for the first 8 feet or so <<

What eight feet? Back boiler is fitted within the fireplace (builder’s opening). As such, the flexible flue liner is not visible and cannot be visible as it can ONLY be placed within the chimney. How can you see eight feet of flexible liner? He is correct when he says the flue cannot run horizontally. Strange set up. Standard installation is when backboiler sits in the fireplace, flexible liner within the chimney, top and bottom annular space sealed. Why is the flue horizontal and why is 8 feet of it visible.

Boiler and firefront work together so are checked together. No question about it. To carry out spillage check on the boiler with firefront not connected proves nothing. In fact the backboiler cannot be used if the firefront is not in place.

Vent size is based on appliance rating. While it can be size of a barn door, it cannot be undersize. Correctly sized vent is better as there will not be any draughts. There are times when a wall thickness is such that the sleeve will be too short. My understanding of a sleeve inclusion is to allow flow of air from the outside to the room where the appliance is fitted. Air or debris from the cavity should not enter/ block the space between the two vents.

 

[snapper01]

'Bad apple' ? you decide ......
his mate phoned me up 2 days after the cut off suggesting he came round with some boiler brochures.

The independent (corgi)'second opinion' has been, dismantled, assembled, re-connected and burned a box of smoke matches stinking the house out. Only this time he was fuming about an unnecessary cut off, the boiler / fire was not!

The flue is the right size, (and for DP, goes upwards only, I had an inspection mirror and a torch on the job and was only posing the question about possibly going out through the wall instead of up if the current flue was duff)
The vent was the right size according to Baxi. (even before i took an additional brick out)
The spill tests were ok this time, it was as though there was perhaps (?)a 'temporary obstruction' in the flue first time? nuff said.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this forum, you've all helped me out and kept me moderately sane. It just shows, going back to the first response - get a second opinion!! Thanks guys.

 

[silverback]

First point snapper01, there is no such thing as Corgi regs, Corgi do not make the regs.
Second, why did you say that you were new to the area and in the next sentence say that you have been running a CO detector in the room for 3 years

 

[chrishutt]

The spill tests were ok this time, it was as though there was perhaps (?)a 'temporary obstruction' in the flue first time? nuff said.

Nuff said? Sounds like the guy who condemned the boiler was at best incompetent, and at worst running a racket with his mate who tried to sell you a new boiler.

Well done for sticking up for yourself, but shouldn't you be drawing the attention of Corgi to this? You're probably not the only victim of this guy - most wouldn't have the nous to argue the toss.

 

[compheat]

The problem is that the public dont trust TRADESMEN and who can blame them?? Ive been to countless jobs both RGI and BG that have been discnnected only to find nothing wrong TRANSCO find gas leaks all the time just so there not responsible for the appliances. Its a mine field out there and has iv'e always said JUST CAUSE YOUR CORGI REG DOES'NT MEAN YOUR A HONEST PERSON

 

[ollski]

The problem is that the public dont trust TRADESMEN and who can blame them?? Ive been to countless jobs both RGI and BG that have been discnnected only to find nothing wrong TRANSCO find gas leaks all the time just so there not responsible for the appliances. Its a mine field out there and has iv'e always said JUST CAUSE YOUR CORGI REG DOES'NT MEAN YOUR A HONEST PERSON

The letter of the law is to cut off a spilling appliance and the appliance was demonstrated to be spilling. Thats the joy of open flues for you, they can be alright one day and spilling the next, temperaure, wind etc. There's nothing dishonest in it, it's much easier to complete a standard service than fart around capping off, upsetting customers and causing yourself excess paperwork.