boiler ventilation

[bonnanbuidhe]

Hello,

Our Ideal Mexico Super 2 CF50 is free standing in the kitchen. It has been serviced annually by a CORGI registered firm. An engineer who called to service the boiler a few days ago told my wife that the installation was illegal because the underfloor ventilation would not meet the "new regulations". He went on to say that he would normally have to cap the boiler until additional ventilation in the form of a brick was fitted. My wife is elderly and what the engineer told her worried her to the extent that she will not put the boiler on.

Given that we have not had a problem for the past twenty years, ( I am not writing this from beyond the grave), I am not convinced that the additional ventilation is necessary. A CORGI registered engineer to whom I spoke on the phone agrees with me but I still have a nagging doubt.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

Bonnanbuidhe

 

[mysteryman]

Someone should check the ventilation very carefully. If it really has been insufficient for twenty years, then your man is right to condemn it.

The trouble is that everyone is scared of being found wanting in their safety inspections, and therefore are ultra-cautious.

The last man to work on any part of a gas installation is responsible at law for all aspects of the whole installation. If he misses anything, the penalties are huge, and there are guys fined heavily and/or in prison. This is sometimes following a death.

Be careful!

 

[bonnanbuidhe]

Someone should check the ventilation very carefully. If it really has been insufficient for twenty years, then your man is right to condemn it.

The trouble is that everyone is scared of being found wanting in their safety inspections, and therefore are ultra-cautious.

The last man to work on any part of a gas installation is responsible at law for all aspects of the whole installation. If he misses anything, the penalties are huge, and there are guys fined heavily and/or in prison. This is sometimes following a death.

Be careful!

Thanks for your reply. The installation has been EFFICIENT for twenty years because it was installed in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. The people who installed the boiler have maintained it on a yearly basis. I think your point about their being ultra-cautious has hit the nail on the head.

 

[kirkgas]

i dont really agree with the term ultra cautious, you know the rules and you abide by them, if not sure you check before commenting/acting, was the last guy from the same company who installed it? if so call their office to discuss it, the regs changed a few years ago where something lacked ventilation we called it NCS (not to current standards) we are now required to call it AR (at risk) if less than 90% of required air is there, IF it was installed as per instructions it will be adequate as there have been no reg changes re air required. IF you have recounted his conversation with your wife correctly (not having a go but we are now getting the conversation 3rd hand, chinese whispers and all that) I think your guy doesn't know what he is talking about, he said he "should" cap it, he has therefore broken the gas regs by not doing so, if it is AR then he only has to turn it off and advise you to get it fixed, you only cap something that is ID (immediately dangerous). so what you need to do is talk to the installer firm and new guys firm if different to get someone else to visit and comment in writing what is either right or wrong about the ventilation then if work is required you are in a better position to get it dealt with, if the vent is not right i would be demanding the installer put it right as that is what you paid for 20yrs ago, and have paid 20 times to have it checked without being informed it was installed wrongly

 

[45yearsagasman]

Under floor ventilation paths are acceptable on older installations.Your boiler requires 9 square inches of free area ventilation.ie the vent grills must have holes that add up to 9 sq ins and should not have any insect screens fitted.If the vent size can be proved to be as above then in my opinion the worst classification would be Not to current standards .Obviously a full flue test should be carried out as well.

 

[kirkgas]

Under floor ventilation paths are acceptable on older installations.Your boiler requires 9 square inches of free area ventilation.ie the vent grills must have holes that add up to 9 sq ins and should not have any insect screens fitted.If the vent size can be proved to be as above then in my opinion the worst classification would be Not to current standards .Obviously a full flue test should be carried out as well.

how can a boiler that has adequate ventilation volume, provided by a properly configured vent ever be classes as NCS, if you fit a new OF boiler today are you saying it isnt acceptable to fit a floor vent?

 

[45yearsagasman]

Kirk, I was commenting only on the original post as it mentioned that he had underfloor vents.They are sometimes very hard to prove correct sizing.At no time did I say it was wrong but its not a preferred route.Some underfloor vents as you may know are 5" plastic pipe ducted from outside to the boiler position.The point is that is almost impossible to prove the whole length is clear so that to me is clearly NTCS.Are plumbers still fitting OF boilers?

 

[petit_pablo]

Undefloor ventilation needs to ducted to outside. If its not ducted and you can prove the vent path is clear and doesnt communicate with another property then happy days. You've got to be dead keen if you are going to remove the floor to check.

On top of the above, the vent needs to be 100% of the required free area at both the floor vent and the vent/s to outside to be right. If its 90-100% of the required free area then its ncs. Anything less than 90% is at risk now.

Chances are its never been 100% correct but i doubt the company that fitted are going to admit that.

 

[bonnanbuidhe]

i dont really agree with the term ultra cautious, you know the rules and you abide by them, if not sure you check before commenting/acting, was the last guy from the same company who installed it? if so call their office to discuss it, the regs changed a few years ago where something lacked ventilation we called it NCS (not to current standards) we are now required to call it AR (at risk) if less than 90% of required air is there, IF it was installed as per instructions it will be adequate as there have been no reg changes re air required. IF you have recounted his conversation with your wife correctly (not having a go but we are now getting the conversation 3rd hand, chinese whispers and all that) I think your guy doesn't know what he is talking about, he said he "should" cap it, he has therefore broken the gas regs by not doing so, if it is AR then he only has to turn it off and advise you to get it fixed, you only cap something that is ID (immediately dangerous). so what you need to do is talk to the installer firm and new guys firm if different to get someone else to visit and comment in writing what is either right or wrong about the ventilation then if work is required you are in a better position to get it dealt with, if the vent is not right i would be demanding the installer put it right as that is what you paid for 20yrs ago, and have paid 20 times to have it checked without being informed it was installed wrongly

Thank you for your informative reply. Chinese whispers notwithstanding, the engineer said he ought to cap the boiler. He went on to say that he would pretend he had not paid us a visit, so that we would have time to have additional ventilation to be fitted before he returned to service the boiler. My wife was disturbed by this , the more so when he told her the installation was illegal.

Since posting on here I have spoken to the enginer's manager on the phone. He has agreed to my request to put things in writing. The gist of our conversation was as follows:

Our ventilation does not meet current standards. Last year it was 50% of the required area and a note was made on our file to this effect. When I asked why we had not been told of this and why we appear to have been left in a dangerous situation, he apologised and said it was an error on his company's part.

The current regulations are such that we need to have 90% of the specified area, such that additional ventilation is required. This tightening of the regulations appears tp be part of a drive to "encourage" people to discard old boilers,

I was told that in retaining the current level of ventilation we are not breaking the law as suggested by his engineer.

Finally, he explained that until recently notification of changes to the regulations were circulate in print to all CORGI -registered engineers. This has been discontinued and the information is now posted online. The manager suggested that some people are not aware of this or possibly do not bother to keep up to date.

I expect to have a letter confirming the above points in a few days.

 

[CMairiD]

Our ventilation does not meet current standards. Last year it was 50% of the required area and a note was made on our file to this effect. When I asked why we had not been told of this and why we appear to have been left in a dangerous situation, he apologised and said it was an error on his company's part.

The current regulations are such that we need to have 90% of the specified area, such that additional ventilation is required. This tightening of the regulations appears tp be part of a drive to "encourage" people to discard old boilers,

CORGI were warning installers since at least May 2005 (4th edition of Unsafe Sits) that as of 1 June 2008, anything under 90% of required ventilation would be classed as AR (at risk = turn off appliance and advise customer). They also advised that the gas user/responsible person should be advised in writing that this situation should be brought up to current standards.

If you servicing date has remained roughly the same each year (July), then I would suggest this has been missed 2005-2009.

 

[Boilerman2]

With the latest addition of the GSU regs Ventillation has been tightened up, a situation which a few years ago have been p[assed of as NCS has now elevated to AR (At Risk) hence your Warning notice.

you can argue untill the cows come home, but I would get your ventilation brought up to current standards

You are a long time dead by Carbon monoxide poisioning

P.S Your Engineer should be "Gas SAfe Registered" to be Legal CORGI still exist, but they lost their contract with the HSE to cxontrol Gas Work in England

 

[Boilerman2]

I used to work for an Installer - It can be very difficult politically to condemn your enployers work, something that from time to time I had to do, and which usually ended up with me and the MD in Boardroom (not plesant!) But at the end of the day and Engineer has to go with his consience and make "the right desicion".

The Guy that attended the OP's house would appear to be a bit excitable, and if he says he should have capped it but would walk away to give you chance to sort it, did you no favours at all, as in his mind he walked away from what he clearly albeit wrongly identified as an ID situation, if he was in my employ, I would be grilling him in our Boardroom!!

 

[ChrisR]

must have holes that add up to 9 sq ins

We don't work in inches any more, and 9 square inches would be the wrong amount.
Better go back to your books mate.

 

[45yearsagasman]

must have holes that add up to 9 sq ins

We don't work in inches any more, and 9 square inches would be the wrong amount.
Better go back to your books mate.

The MI's give this figure but you obviously know better than the manufacturers!...mate

 

[bonnanbuidhe]

Our ventilation does not meet current standards. Last year it was 50% of the required area and a note was made on our file to this effect. When I asked why we had not been told of this and why we appear to have been left in a dangerous situation, he apologised and said it was an error on his company's part.

The current regulations are such that we need to have 90% of the specified area, such that additional ventilation is required. This tightening of the regulations appears tp be part of a drive to "encourage" people to discard old boilers,

CORGI were warning installers since at least May 2005 (4th edition of Unsafe Sits) that as of 1 June 2008, anything under 90% of required ventilation would be classed as AR (at risk = turn off appliance and advise customer). They also advised that the gas user/responsible person should be advised in writing that this situation should be brought up to current standards.

If you servicing date has remained roughly the same each year (July), then I would suggest this has been missed 2005-2009.

HSE have confirmed what you say. It appears that our installation had been AR for the past two years. A letter received from the company whicjh has serviced our boiler for the last twenty years states that the requirement for 95% ventillation was introduced in "late 2008".I now know that the date was June 2008, which can hardly be called late. Our boiler was serviced in mid-July of that year and passed as NCS instead of AR. The same thing occured in 2009.

I feel it is reasonable to ask for a refund of what we paid for the last two substandard services. Is this fair ?

I am now arranging to have the ventilation brought up to standard.

Thanks again to all of you who were kind enough to comment on my problem