Bosch hob - multiple choice connection!

[ban-all-sheds]

As I understand it (and it seems from these forums that interpretation of the Part P regs is somewhat wayward) a competent person can do domestic electrical work, such as fitting kitchen appliances as I am undertaking, if the work is inspected and signed off by a person qualified to do this.

If you work for a company that is registered to self-certify compliance with the building regulations by virtue of having suitably qualified supervisor(s), yes.

I also understand that this hypothetical competent person can do the work and get the electricity board to approve it at a cost.

No - it's nothing to do with "the electricity board", it's a Local Authority Building Control function.

If Part P isn't called Part P, then I apologise, but it's no big deal.

Well it is a big deal, because Part P is a Building Regulation, not the IEE Wiring Regulations, aka BS 7671, and your mix-up of the terms shows that you have never heard of, or seen, the latter. And working under the guidance and supervision of a qualified person or not, that is a truly outrageous state of affairs for anybody doing anything with electricity apart from using it.

 

[Kes]

Hi,

I may have misinterpreted the name of the appropriate regulations, and the relevant authority that certifies electrical work, but that has no bearing on my competence. I do stand corrected.

What confuses me is Ban's posting this morning in the Own Testing thread when he says that 'you don't need any qualifications to be allowed to test, or carry out, electrical installations.' That thread implies that you have to be competent and conform to BS7671. Without being immodest I consider that I am, and I do. My efforts to have my work inspected and tested support that.

Rgds.

 

[pcboffinuk]

Hi Kes,

Personally I blame the Government and the Building Control people for doing such a crap job of publicising Part P and what it means.

Given that some of the Building Control departments don't even seem to understand the regs, its hardly surprising that there is confusion.

The reason that some people get tetchy about it is largely frustration at this confusion which comes up again and again on here.

There are two seperate and distinct things here:

The British Standard BS7671 (previously known as the 16th Edition Wiring Regs) which provide detailed advice on how to carry out all aspects of electrical installations.

Part P of the building regulations, which means that all electrical work in the home must be to a certain standard, and that some must be either a) carried out by a competent person, or b) carried out by anyone but approved by the local Building Control department.

(Note here that anyone can do the work, the regs apply to the approval of this work in certain situations, and provide general (very general) rules on the standard of the work.)

To issue electrical certificates, or testing certificates as detailed in BS7671, you in fact need no qualifications - though you are signing your name as competent and therefore are legally liable should something go wrong.

To avoid paying the local Building Control to approve certain types of electrical work, you can be registered as a 'competent person' with one of the 'competent person' schemes, who are supposed to maintain and assess the suitability of the people on their scheme, and notify the Building Control on their behalf of any notifiable work carried out.

Note that such a competent person can ONLY assess and certify their own work, not someone elses. There are some who bend this rule, but they are technically breaking it, not bending it.

Any one else CAN complete a certificate for someone elses work, but they CANNOT certify it as being compliant with Part P of the Building Regulations. Only a Building Control Officer can do that.

Having said that, some Building Control departments will accept certification from an approved electrician whom they know, as most Building Control officers are not qualified as electricians. That however is a local decision, and not one that is regulated.

The annoyance on here stems (rightly I think) from the fact that an electrician with 30 years experience has to pay the Building Control for approval, whereas someone like me who has done a weeks course and pays £500 a year to a registration body can bypass them.

I hope that hasn't confused the issue further...

As I say, the Building Control departments often don't seem to know their own rules. As an example, my local one tries to charge £140 + vat in addition to normal fees when electrical work has to be inspected, which is specifically outlawed by the regs (they must be included in the standard price for approval).

Regards

Gavin

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The annoyance on here stems (rightly I think) from the fact that an electrician with 30 years experience has to pay the Building Control for approval, whereas someone like me who has done a weeks course and pays £500 a year to a registration body can bypass them.

So can the 30-year man, if he too pays his (tax deductible) £500.....

 

[Kes]

Hi,

Thanks Gavin, excellent post. I'll talk to my expert and clarify what he will do, and what I have to do, to close this properly.

Rgds.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Are you his employee, or are you both employees of the same company?

 

[Kes]

Hi,

No, we're separately employed, him in the electrical trade and me in a non-related trade.

I appreciate your laudable desire to have some sort of proper standards in this case (and no doubt many other cases in this forum), and that you have clarified some points for me. I don't want this to drag out too long here though.

Rgds.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Hi,

No, we're separately employed, him in the electrical trade and me in a non-related trade.

Then what you and he are doing is illegal.

He cannot self-certify notifiable work done by you, and you cannot avoid your obligation to notify LABC in advance by having him test and inspect.

It is perfectly possible that your LABC would be happy for him to I&T, and issue BS 7671 EICs, but you must agree that with them, and you must still notify them in advance and pay their building notice fee.

 

[Pensdown]

Hi Kes,

The annoyance on here stems (rightly I think) from the fact that an electrician with 30 years experience has to pay the Building Control for approval, whereas someone like me who has done a weeks course and pays £500 a year to a registration body can bypass them.

Regards

Gavin

Not in my case. My annoyance on here is -

I'm installing a new Bosch electrical hob, and the connection box has me puzzled.

Kes is out installing cookers for PAYING customers and yet he can't understand a simple wiring diagram....

As I understand it (and it seems from these forums that interpretation of the Part P regs is somewhat wayward) a competent person can do domestic electrical work, such as fitting kitchen appliances as I am undertaking, if the work is inspected and signed off by a person qualified to do this. I also understand that this hypothetical competent person can do the work and get the electricity board to approve it at a cost.

The person who is giving me guidance and signing off my work is qualified. Of course he inspects on site and tests, it would be irregular if he didn't.

If Part P isn't called Part P, then I apologise, but it's no big deal.

And that is WTF is going on out here.

...he does not have a clue about the rules and regulations which he should be working too on behalf of his PAYING customers

What confuses me is Ban's posting this morning in the Own Testing thread when he says that 'you don't need any qualifications to be allowed to test, or carry out, electrical installations.' That thread implies that you have to be competent and conform to BS7671. Without being immodest I consider that I am, and I do. My efforts to have my work inspected and tested support that.

...he is clearly not "competent" to carry out electrical work for PAYING customers


And to quote BAS

Then what you and he are doing is illegal.

 

[pcboffinuk]

Not in my case. My annoyance on here is -

Kes is out installing cookers for PAYING customers and yet he can't understand a simple wiring diagram....

...........

And to quote BAS

Then what you and he are doing is illegal.

Ah, I hadn't appreciated that he was installing for a paying customer and not doing his own kitchen...

BAS is correct either way in saying that doing it this way is breaking the regulations (unless there is an agreement with the LABC) which sounds unlikely....

Gavin

 

[Kes]

Hi,

Pensdown, I don't know where you get the ludicrous idea that I'm installing for paying customers. I'm replacing the hob in my own kitchen, for Pete's sake, and thanks to the help here I've connected the three wires in the cable correctly and competently. I mentioned this to a qualified electrician friend and he said he'd come along and look at it for me, which he did and commented that my work was up to or exceeded professional standards. OK, I grasped the wrong end of the stick in what he was proposing to do, and could do, regarding certification, and I've shown suitable contrition for that.

Please can we close this, it's even boring me. Thank you for all your contributions.

Rgds.

 

[Pensdown]

Hi,

Now I've contacted my part P supervisor/authoriser, he says that terminal 1 feeds the large ring, term 2 the medium ring, and trem 3 the two small rings. How on earth did he deduce that from a few photos?

Anyway, it's connected as diagram 1 with the links and powered up fine. All rings work OK.

Thanks and rgds.

It was this post.

Sorry, I'll get back into my cage.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

OK, I grasped the wrong end of the stick.

And so did a few other people, myself included.

But that's because by using words and phrases like:

"supervisor"

"the person qualified to guide my electrical work and to certify that it's done in accordance to the electrical regs"

"The person who is giving me guidance and signing off my work is qualified. Of course he inspects on site and tests, it would be irregular if he didn't."

you held it out to us...

 

[steadsy]