Boundary Advice Needed

[Always Learning]

Hi

We purchased a property last April and were shown the boundary through the land registry on the HIP pack, as the Neighbor drives over a section of our land to get to his back garden we thought we would ask the solicitor to look into any agreements which might be in place preventing us from fencing off our land.

We were told that we can fence off the land up to the boundary and that the neighbor would have to have use over our land for 20 years before they could prevent us from fencing it off.

As they only purchased a section of land to have the house built at the back in 2004 this would not apply yet.

Now as it stands the house is rented out and from day one we got hassle - been told that it is their land as they have seen plans etc etc.

We then had to put up with them having people parking out the back blocking us from having exit/entry to our garden and also having exhausts and other crap left on our land.

I decided to purchase a copy of the plans for next door and found that their driveway is not part of their boundary and that it is in fact No Mans Land as we say.

Anyhow we are getting an estimate this week for wrought iron gates and fencing but I wondered if we legally have to allow next door a set amount of space to get into and out of their rear garden?

Here are some pics.

This pic is where the wooden double gates were which blew down, you can see the land we are wanting to fence off and where the track is which he drives over.

This is our boundary and the land in question.

This is a pic showing No Mans Land which next door use as a driveway - this is not on their boundary, my issue is if we fence off our boundary then they don't have much space to get to the rear of their property - the fear is that there is a legal limit to access they might need.

This is their land registry plan in Red - the green is our boundary and the blue is the area I call no mans land which they use as a driveway.

Here is our boundary plan below, the area in green is Land that was sold to next door back in 2004 which they built a house on at the rear of the shop.

Any help and advice would be appreciated, we took out a policy to cover us for any legal disputes with the rear of the property which the solicitor had the sellers pay - this might run out in April.

We also contacted the letting agent and wrote them a letter to pass on to the owner stating our intentions and saying that our land is no longer to be crossed from March the 1st.

So this is where we are currently at - any thoughts?

 

[UKMICKY]

Not all easements (ROW's) are express and noted on the servient or dominant tenements deeds,some are implied on transfer and as your land (if im reading this right? ) formally owned the land that their house is situated on that may be the case here and it is possible they could have a right of access on foot or by vehicle. If they have been using the access from day one from the time that they purchased the land that could be the case .

The no mans land is not no mans land in reality as it is owned by someone even if untracable and if your land previously used it for 20 years plus and gained the right for a prescripive easement , which can be from more than one owner added together to make 20 years, their land will as it was one part of yours also have the right.

What access will they have should you block it off.?

 

[UKMICKY]

One more thing disputes like this can easily if they were go to court exceed the amount that the insurance policy pays out to cover legal costs.

 

[Always Learning]

UKMICKY thanks for replying to this post, I will try and add some more info to the situation at a later date.

Today we received a letter from the owner of the property next door, I think I am going to have to go to a solicitor with this now unfortunately.

Basically the shop/flat next door used to have access over our land to the front of the house - this was through an alleyway which has now been closed off - we have a front door, hallway and downstairs toilet in place (done before we bought the property)

The lady has come up with a few things we need to look into, I think we will have to leave them enough access to get around to the back of their property which I have no problem with but I do not want a vehicle going over there because of the problems we are currently having with the neighbors.

Thanks again for the advice, I will keep you posted with how things go.

 

[r896neo]

Even if you wanted to enforce it and go to court i can't see any judgment getting passed that is going to refuse them access?

 

[WabbitPoo]

I would consider pursuing your conveyancing solicitor - this is exactly the sort of issue they are payed to check BEFORE you buy.

Just my 2p.

 

[LooPrEvil]

How long has the dispute been going on between the two households? Was that part of the reason why the previous owner sold up? If so did they declare they were in dispute with a neighbour prior to you purchasing the property?

They may have had a legal obligation to make you aware of ongoing issues to you.

Good luck, this is not want you want when you have just purchased a property.

 

[r896neo]

Quite true, They will have signed a pre-contract agreement on which there is an extensive section on other peoples right to use or access through your land or any other interests in your land.

If they failed to declare this access arrangement they are in breach of contract, however you must have known about this to some extent when you viewed the house and had the conveyancing done and if you accepted the situation as it was then its a harder one to correct.

 

[Always Learning]

Thanks guys for the reply's

With this property we had a previous owner from around 35 years ago view it with us on the 3rd viewing (to tell us of the changes from when they owned it) They had the property for 10 years.

They opened up the back with a digger for access using a car, my wife can remember the alleyway at the front of the house which was shared with the owners of the flat and shop.

The next owner had the house for approx 25 years and sold it to a lady who bought before viewing - it stayed empty for a couple of years then it got repossessed.

The section of land was sold to the owners of the shop next door in 2004.
We have some issues as people have dumped furniture and stuff on this land, next door have left car exhausts before and fixed cars on the land, this winter gone we could not open the double gates as next door kept their driveway open by piling the snow in front of our gates.

From day one they said it was their land and they have been awkward with us ever since.

Now on signing we went through it all with the solicitor who said it was ours and that we could fence it off, he said that they would have to have access over this land for 20 years before they could stop us from fencing it in.

I asked could there in any way be an agreement where the land is shared and he said he had already checked everything and it was ours, his advice was to fence it off to stop any further problems at a later date.

Right now this is in the hands of the solicitor, I gave him photographs to cover everything and also the letters sent/received between ourselves and the owner. I also said that we agree they should have access through the back but it will be only pedestrian access and not be wide enough for a vehicle (we do not want to shut them out totally)

Last summer the solicitor sent a letter to those renting stating our intentions back then and telling them that it was private land belonging to the house.

As for the dispute - before the owners and those building the house (on the land sold off) got along really well and it was just an agreement verbally between the 2 that they could drive over the land, we knew nothing of any previous disputes as this only started in 2004 when the land was sold, the house we bought was sold in 2007 and was empty until last April 2010.

Sorry for the long post - I will let you know what the outcome is when I hear something.

Thanks

 

[Always Learning]

I can't see the problem with the proposals in the pictures above.
The area needs tidying up and the shrubs are way too big so stripping them back would make more room, no-one seems to own that section of land so if they are removed they would have a decent pathway left.

I had been verbally abused one morning for working on the house at 07:50am it was pretty unpleasant language and as a result we had a bit of a set too (verbally) we are not now on speaking terms with the people renting next door.

I could go out of my way and block access with my own car or have skips dropped off but instead I park around the corner and have skips and supplies delivered there also - we just want to try and go down the correct channels with this.

 

[LooPrEvil]

I am surprised that you are dealing with the tenant. Go through the house owner if you have issues with the occupants, who may be in breach of their tenancy agreement.

 

[Always Learning]

Sorry LooPrEvil

Sometimes I don't explain things so well, we are now in contact with the owner via the letting agent.

The owner addressed her letter so we can contact her direct now.
She did offer to purchase or rent the land but we just want to claim our boundary and use it as part of the garden.

You can see the garden is a nice size, this was taken just before we purchased the property - it has changed a bit since then.

 

[UKMICKY]

Important questions, sorry bit confused.

The blue on the title plan did you do that or is it original to the plan.

If it is original to the plan on your and their title register what does it say in relation to easements across the blue area.

Do the neighbours have any access to their property that does not include access onto your land.

The no mans land , is that the blue area and if so is that the area you believe you own . If so why do you believe you own it apart from what the solicitor said because the title plan dosent show that.

What does there title register say in relation to easements.

 

[Always Learning]

UKMICKY the blue on the plan was something which I put in - I purchased the plans online for approx £4 each.

CE178718 is of our boundary in red with the land sold off in green. (I added in the blue just as an example)


CE190755 is of the boundary next door in Red, the small green square is the shop and flat above. (the blue and our boundary I added in as an example again)

Sorry for the confusion.

Yes their is access from the front, the shop has a door which when opened has access to the shop / flat above and house at the rear. They have their own area at the front and do not have to set foot on our land.

The no mans land is the area I filled in blue, this is not our land and I do not wish to try and claim this land.

I was just trying to show that the land does not belong to us or the neighbors next door either, we are only looking at fencing off our area around our boundary which is in red.

I just looked at the plan I purchased but there are no mentions of anything to do with easements.

At present I just have attachments sent to our solicitor via email for his advice, we expect to hear from him this week.

UKMICKY I can scan the letters sent and photographs plus plans if you are wanting to see them, I am not really wanting to end up in court or have a huge bill but I am unsure how else I can settle this.

It seems that when the lady purchased the land and built the house they did not really cover their part for access to the rear of the property.

We own the house outright but don't want to borrow money to do it up so we are just spending our monthly wages and getting done what we can.

We have done a lot in the 10 months but still have a long way to go, still no carpets downstairs - we are doing without to get stuff done, I just hope this ends up been simple without things getting nasty.

Thanks again for taking time to read / look at this.

I added in a screen capture from a section of the plan showing the 2 boundary's in question.

 

[UKMICKY]

So they are not landlocked,which is good as they cant claim an easement of nessesity.

They could still claim an implied right of access but they would need to prove that the previous landowner sold them the land with the intention of allowing them and future owners access through your land. This is not easy thing to prove without documented evidence or a property that would be landlocked without access through the original plot that it once belonged to.

Their is nothing which says they must have even limited access to a rear of a property where no easement rights currently exist and if the title register (not plan)has no written details in the charges register part then you should consider stopping all access so a prescriptive right cant be aquired in the future.

In my opinion your solicitor needs to send them a letter giving them 28 or 14 days notice of you fencing off the area due to their tennents trespassing on your land and in the letter it should give them a chance to prove any easement right the feel they might have within the 28 days of notice period

If no evidence is forth coming then fence it off.

But be prepared just incase something appears that could show a right and should you recieve something do nothing until a solicitor has given it a once over .

In the end your solicitor is the one with the law degree not me so use his wisdom and advice to base any actions on.

Good luck