Brand new central heating/water system. Plastic or copper?

[Softus]

Softus we could go round in circles over stupid, niggly little points

You're the one going round in circles. I simply responded to the points that you raised - if you regard your own points as stupid and niggly then I wouldn't disagree with that. It's interesting that you haven't responded to any of the questions I asked that challenged your points, viz:

1. What proportion of pushfit fittings leak owing to poor installation, or poor storage of tubing, compared to the proportion of poorly installed compression fittings that leak, and compared to leaks from corroded or eroded copper tubing?

2. Are pushfit fittings all cheap looking? Including Speedfit? And more so than Endex?

3. What does "nasty" mean when describing pushfit fittings?

4. How can you regard pushfit fittings to be "unproven" when they've been in use for more than 30 years?

5. In what way is plastic and pushfit overpriced, when the total job price compared to copper is invariably the same?

If you want to go round in circles then all you need to do is repeat your unfounded claims, and I'll keep asking you to justify them.

...but my opinion is the same that plastic is rubbish and an opinion based on what I have seen in my experience is all I can give.

It is this opinion that I regard as blinkered. Copper has its uses, one of which is to be rigid where one wants it to be. But plastic has its uses too, so too solder, and compression, and pushfit, and crimping. For example, would you truly prefer to lay an underfloor heating system using bent and soldered copper? And provide a warranty for it? If you actually believe that copper lasts a lifetime (although you haven't explained what or whose lifetime that is), then I don't believe you have very much plumbing and heating system experience.

You are perfectly welcome to do the same as others have and let the original poster draw his own conclusions.

WTF? I haven't tried to influence the poster other than by providing information, whereas you're the one suppurating from a personal grudge against pushfit.

You may also wish to read others experiences with plastic on here

I'll certainly read them when I come across them, but I don't see the point of me seeking out other's experiences unless they alter the facts regarding copper and plastic. Notwithstanding that, nothing alters the fact that my stock cupboards are stuffed with fittings of all types, ready for use in the right circumstances.

...although we will probably all be dismissed as blinkered and flying in the face of fact.

If you're saying that everyone who dislikes plastic does so for the same reasons as you, then I would certainly challenge them to give rational reasons for their dislike. If all they would do is complain about two (only two!) fittings in their own house, and issue a limp attempt at sarcasm, like your final comment above, then the debate wouldn't go very far.

If your overriding concern truly is to give balanced advice to the poster, and other DIY readers, then I would expect you to use your knowledge, experience and resources to provide hard statistics that support your belief that a multi-million pound industry of manufacturing pushfit fittings is simply supplying "nasty rubbish" (sic.) to everyone. I suspect you're not actually acting in the poster's best interests, though - you appear just to have taken the opportunity to vent your spleen about pushfit, in which case it has rather backfired on you.

 

[ollski]

Oh right ok, thanks for that clarification.....I agree its the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Softus]

I agree its the best thing since sliced bread.

I don't.

 

[Softus]

Even though plastic CH makes up about one in 20 installations in London almost half of the leaks I am called to sort out are on plastic systems.

Without wishing to be flippant, doesn't this mean that more than half of the leaks occur in non-plastic installations? And isn't that an argument for using plastic?

Either they have just decided to leak or they are clearly badly made in the beginning.

Or badly installed

There is an older plastic system with brownish fittings possibly called "bartol" or similar and they have been significant in their number of split fittings.

Bartol - these truly are sub-standard - I can't wait until they've all been removed and incinerated.

 

[ollski]

I agree its the best thing since sliced bread.

I don't.

No. I didn't imagine you would for a minute. You're not the mutant spawning of an encounter between pedanticvindictiveman and traineegasman are you??

 

[bogstandard]

I am sure that most of the leaks are down to the careless and unskilled fitting - forgetting to fit inserts - sloppy cutting, seen it cut with a saw!? I personally have hot/cold water supply in plastic for over 20 years and not the least prob- course hot central heating is perhaps somewhat more demanding. I believe that all floor boards should be screwed where piping is layed!

 

[Softus]

PVM and TGM are invariably illiterate and abusive. I'm simply challenging your view and asking you to justify it.

To illuminate my comment - the one you apparently predicted (yeah right) - I've never claimed that plastic is the best in all circumstances. In fact, it isn't, but I don't accept that copper is either. I'll keep plugging away and expressing my view, in the hope that you'll read it properly one day, the view being that "best" depends on the circumstances of deployment.

If you can't provide solid reasoning to underpin your belief, then you may expect me to continue politely challenging it. If you just want to be sarcastic and childish, and make personal comments, then I really wish you'd come up with something more intelligent than you have so far.

It's entirely up to you, but if you had any good reason for preferring copper, then I doubt that you'd be getting all hateful towards a perfectly good alternative product.

 

[ollski]

But softus you are not correctly interpreting the posts merely picking out points to attempt to make smart arsed comments:

ie
Agile wrote:
Even though plastic CH makes up about one in 20 installations in London almost half of the leaks I am called to sort out are on plastic systems.

Without wishing to be flippant, doesn't this mean that more than half of the leaks occur in non-plastic installations? And isn't that an argument for using plastic?

Um no it's not. It is saying that in Tonys experience plastic is approx. 20 times more likely to leak.

ollski wrote:
Sorry but I stick with unproven, I have never seen 30 year old plastic pipe installations


You're never seen it so it doesn't exist - this doesn't give the impression of being a cogent conclusion.

No it may well exist, but I have never seen it and therefore not in a position to offer you my experience on it.

ollski wrote:
I have used it alot, but sorry in my opinion it is not a realistic substitute for copper.

You're not actually sorry though, are you. Nevertheless, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how blinkered it is and even though it flies in the face of the facts.

I am sorry that my opinion in particular has enraged you and now welcome you to enlighten us all with these facts I am sure you will soon be bestowing upon us.

ollski wrote:
...and the older stuff I have seen has all been un barriered and trashed the system which isn't a particulaly impressive track record.

OK, I get it now - you prefer copper, as long as it's been correctly installed and protected, over plastic that has not been correctly installed. Well whoop-de-doo.

No I prefer copper over well installed plastic, the un barriered pipework was recommended for heating systems and installed to manufacturers guidelines until they realised it entrained air through the plastic...what do you think of the chances their next discovery may be that the fittings pop off and / or leak.

ollski wrote:
...although we will probably all be dismissed as blinkered and flying in the face of fact.

If you're saying that everyone who dislikes plastic does so for the same reasons as you, then I would certainly challenge them to give rational reasons for their dislike. If all they would do is complain about two (only two!) fittings in their own house, and issue a limp attempt at sarcasm, like your final comment above, then the debate wouldn't go very far.

Um no 2 have gone in my house and I only have 3, as opposed to over 100 soldered copper fittings which have ever failed even though installed.

 

[Softus]

But softus you are not correctly interpreting the posts merely picking out points to attempt to make smart a***d comments:

I am indeed picking out points, but my aim is accuracy of information; you're projecting your aim of being a smart a*se onto me.

However, I was wrong about this:

Even though plastic CH makes up about one in 20 installations in London almost half of the leaks I am called to sort out are on plastic systems.

I failed to read Agile's post properly, and therefore misinterpreted his statistics. However, I merely asked a question to confirm my understanding, which seems to me to be a reasonable approach.

No it may well exist, but I have never seen it and therefore not in a position to offer you my experience on it.

In that case why did you state so unequivocally that it's unproven? That's a rhetorical question, because I have no personal interest in your experience - I ask only to illustrate that your conclusions are shaky and your arguments facile.

I have used it alot, but sorry in my opinion it is not a realistic substitute for copper.

You're not actually sorry though, are you. Nevertheless, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how blinkered it is and even though it flies in the face of the facts.

I am sorry that my opinion in particular has enraged you and now welcome you to enlighten us all with these facts I am sure you will soon be bestowing upon us.

Again with the sarcasm - you seem unable to post a straight answer to a straight question.

As far as being enraged goes, even if I were enraged, which I'm not, your expression of sorry is rather hollow.

...the un barriered pipework was recommended for heating systems and installed to manufacturers guidelines until they realised it entrained air through the plastic...what do you think of the chances their next discovery may be that the fittings pop off and / or leak.

All I can say is (a) I fit either barrier pipe or copper on heating systems, and (b) I believe that the probability of fittings popping off and/or leaking is small, but since I fit them according to the MI, they are covered by the manufacturer's warranty and by my insurance policy.

Um no 2 have gone in my house and I only have 3, as opposed to over 100 soldered copper fittings which have ever failed even though installed.

It's quite possible that the problems you've experienced with push fit fittings in your own house resulted from lack of care with their installation.

 

[markie]

Softus

your wrong he's right

 

[Softus]

Softus

your wrong he's right

About what markie?

 

[markie]

Only joking mate haven't seen/posting 4 a bit on general chat.

 

[Softus]

Oh I see! General chat was getting a bit tedious, what with people counting and the like, and the same old Slogger and Bob Dole stuff being churned out.

Sometimes I wish joe-90 was still here

Anyway, I hope you're well markie, and we'll rub shoulders soon I guess.

 

[DP]

Just about all of my work is repair/ service or maintain CH systems.

Based on this experience, I would only use plastic if copper cannot be installed. I would never use plastic where it is seen.

I have been to badly fouled systems where copper installs can be cleansed but plastic installs have to be repiped. One I am working on just now, the plastic pipe is (6 foot length) could not be cleared with pressure pump.

Bartol lets in air through the pipe wall. Have yet to see an install with this pipe that has not needed new rads. System water is usually coffee coloured.

My preference is copper.

 

[chrishutt]

I have been to badly fouled systems where copper installs can be cleansed but plastic installs have to be repiped. One I am working on just now, the plastic pipe is (6 foot length) could not be cleared with pressure pump

I don't follow this. Can you explain the particular problem with plastic pipe?

In my experience plastic pipe has an advantage over copper when the internal surfaces are coated with deposits - when the deposits are dry they will break free of the smooth plastic pipe wall quite easily, especially if the pipe is bent slightly from side to side.