burger van wiring

[cuffie111]

Hi , I have recently bought a burger van with the intention of running a lot of electrical items , The 3 double sockets already fitted are in one radial circuit with a 32amp circuit breaker . Im thinking about adding at least one more double socket on this circuit then running a 10mm cable for higher consumption cooking units .Or should I be turning this into a ring main circuit to get more output (if so what needs changing)? This is all being supplied by a 10kva generator with comando 16a cable /socket. My questions are am I ok doing what I am suggesting ? Do I need to alter my plans ? I realise a proper upgrade would be a whole new circuit with 32amp plug and cable which I am trying to avoid for the time involved and the extra cost . Can anyone help?

 

[plugwash]

What equipment are you trying to power?
Is the generator single phase or three phase?
is the generator dedicated to your use or used for other things too?

It sounds to me like changing the internal wiring without also changing the external supply is pointless.

 

[Robin0577]

10kVA on a 16A plug and cable?? Errr... NO! If you intend to use your generator to its full capacity then you will need a 63A plug and cable for a start.

All the wiring must be designed, installed and tested to meet BS7671 and probably in this case BS7909 too, so you'll need to employ the services of a professional, although he/she may allow you to do some of the work yourself to save money.

If you are intending to apply for a street trading licence from your local council you may be expected to provide certification of the electrical works, if you are intending to trade on private sites only, they may be less fussy but your insurance company may still require it.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

10kVA on a 16A plug

No - you misunderstand...

Hi , I have recently bought a burger van...

plug
n.
.
.
9. Slang Something inferior, useless, or defective, especially an old, worn-out horse.

 

[ericmark]

Using a generator comes under SECTION 717 MOBILE OR TRANSPORTABLE UNITS of BS7671:2008 and with the generator mounted within the burger van there is not really a problem, but once you use it remote then there are earthing considerations not saying you need an earth rod but you may do and without looking at the van I would not likely to say if required or not.

Likely to get away without using earth rods the connection between the generator and the van will need to be a single cable with only one output from the generator used.

Cable comes as many types and how it is run will determine the current rating 10 mm sq will likely be ample but inside the van all wiring will be in flex which is often ratted at 60 deg C not 70 or 90 deg C used in a house so working out the power a cable can take is not something I could do without looking at the installation.

As to ring circuits with such a small unit it is unlikely a ring would be used but you may find 4 mm sq or 6 mm sq cable is required and as originally it may not even be 2.5 mm sq so this needs looking at before one would know what is required.

At 10kVA the generator could be single or three phase and may even be wired zig-zag with 12 output windings which can be configured to your needs. You may even find centre tapping for the earth so it is not really just a case of plugging in.

Even some electricians may have problems working out what is required and I would suggest this is not a DIY job and if it were done as a DIY then there could be insurance problems.

 

[ericmark]

10kVA on a 16A plug and cable?? Errr... NO! If you intend to use your generator to its full capacity then you will need a 63A plug and cable for a start.

All the wiring must be designed, installed and tested to meet BS7671 and probably in this case BS7909 too, so you'll need to employ the services of a professional, although he/she may allow you to do some of the work yourself to save money.

If you are intending to apply for a street trading licence from your local council you may be expected to provide certification of the electrical works, if you are intending to trade on private sites only, they may be less fussy but your insurance company may still require it.

You may be correct but also one should be OK with a 16A three phase supply from a 10kVA generator. This guy has not said if single or three phase, but having a 32A MCB with a 16A plug would to anyone with an ounce of thought ring alarm bells.

I have seen vans wired with 1.5 mm sq flex which on a 16A MCB was ample but far too easy to jump into a question like this and give wrong advice because some vital info is missing.

So I would agree not a DIY job.

 

[Robin0577]

Ericmark, you're quite right of course, I had missed the possibility of a 16A three phase supply.

 

[cuffie111]

Thanks for all the posts . To clarify the generator is single phase and has the option of 2 x 240v 16A ,2x 110v and 1 x blue 32A socket. Having a further inspection I think what i described as a CB is actually an rcd which by the looks of it has a much newer 32a breaker fitted . The wiring in the van is 4mm flat 2 core + earth and not flex as some say a van should have due to movement. Q if I upgrade to 32Amp socket and cable do I need to upgrade the existing internal wiring . What sort of output should my sockets as a whole be capable of then. Will get the work done professionally .

 

[Spark123]

You need a professional to come and have a look, tell him your needs and let him decide for you. You'll probably need a commercial / industrial type electrician as a lot of the time you'll get a blank look if you ask a domestic electrician about electrical separation and earth free local equipotential bonding!

An RCD is useless if the correct measures are not put in place to ensure the system is correctly earthed.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

To clarify the generator is single phase and has the option of 2 x 240v 16A ,2x 110v and 1 x blue 32A socket.

And they describe it as a 10kVA unit?

Often you can't use all of the outlets at once.

 

[cuffie111]

To clarify the generator is single phase and has the option of 2 x 240v 16A ,2x 110v and 1 x blue 32A socket.

And they describe it as a 10kVA unit?

Often you can't use all of the outlets at once.

Sold to me as a 10kva unit has a Honda 18hp v twin and a stephill generator . On the stephill plate says 10kva . Its a sturdy machine, im fitting wheels to reduce back ache .

 

[ericmark]

Step one get generator checked and insure it has a 0 - 230 volt output if not that could affect other steps so do that first. Assuming the generator is A1 next step is wiring.

If the van is semi-permanent then likely not a problem. However if you tow it every day then likely it will need a re-wire. Although it may last some time before it fails you don't want to do work twice.

One would hope the van has some form of consumer unit. i.e. a box with RCD and MCB installed. If you have that likely the re-wire will wait some time but as already said really not a DIY job.

But you don't say it has any form of switching on the generator so I wonder if inside 12 windings which can be arranged in many ways. If so you may not be able to use all the outputs and it also may not have a standard earthed neutral. So start with that.

 

[cuffie111]

Step one get generator checked and insure it has a 0 - 230 volt output if not that could affect other steps so do that first. Assuming the generator is A1 next step is wiring.

If the van is semi-permanent then likely not a problem. However if you tow it every day then likely it will need a re-wire. Although it may last some time before it fails you don't want to do work twice.

One would hope the van has some form of consumer unit. i.e. a box with RCD and MCB installed. If you have that likely the re-wire will wait some time but as already said really not a DIY job.

But you don't say it has any form of switching on the generator so I wonder if inside 12 windings which can be arranged in many ways. If so you may not be able to use all the outputs and it also may not have a standard earthed neutral. So start with that.

The generator has a CB and there is a RCD on the van , had the generator working using grinders , 3x 500w lights and a wallpaper stripper to test operation

 

[cuffie111]

Step one get generator checked and insure it has a 0 - 230 volt output if not that could affect other steps so do that first. Assuming the generator is A1 next step is wiring.

If the van is semi-permanent then likely not a problem. However if you tow it every day then likely it will need a re-wire. Although it may last some time before it fails you don't want to do work twice.

One would hope the van has some form of consumer unit. i.e. a box with RCD and MCB installed. If you have that likely the re-wire will wait some time but as already said really not a DIY job.

But you don't say it has any form of switching on the generator so I wonder if inside 12 windings which can be arranged in many ways. If so you may not be able to use all the outputs and it also may not have a standard earthed neutral. So start with that.

The generator has a CB and there is a RCD on the van , had the generator working using grinders , 3x 500w lights and a wallpaper stripper to test operation

Thanks for all your help and advice.

 

[ericmark]

I expected the generator would work but working and working safely are not the same. Some fridges and freezers do not like the earth and neutral not being nearly the same and I have had Honda generators in the past where the earth and neutral were not bonded but instead earth was connected to a tapping often around 55 volts away from neutral voltage.

I expect you will want to run fridge or freezer and rather than find out the problem after doing a load of work it is so easy to test with a meter that wants doing first.

I have also seen it where 110 volts where taken from one split phase with two 16A from another phase and a 32A from the third this would mean to use it would need two or three consumer units instead of one and you need to know about this before you start doing any work.

I hope the generator is straight 230 volt supply and all what I have said proves not to be a problem but better to test before you start on other work.