Can anyone help me with system design

[AMEdinburgh]

We have recently added an extension to my practice housing
1) some new rooms
2) a hydrotherapy pool
3) a water treadmill with storage tank

I plumbed the original surgery heating system and so the rooms with conventional radiators should be no problem. The original rooms are all connected to a Worcester 350. I think I'll keep the Worcester in the original part of the practice and go with a Viessmann 333 (professionally installed and connected to the pre-plumbing jig I shall install) with the inbuilt DHW storage tank and use the re-circulating loop for hot water around the whole building for "instant" DHW and also to provide a good volume for filling the treadmill tank. I should be OK with this. I plan to have a small open radiator in the new shower-room and a larger open one in the new largest room and the rest with thermostatic valves and a master room stat in the largest room

However I want the new Viessmann to handle these few rads plus the pool and treadmill heat exchangers and an unsure how to arrange the system for this.

The pool re-circulates chlorinated water through the sand filter all the time and I have a heat exchanger to let into this pipework. The boiler (rather than a expensive to run electric element) would then heat the water as it re-circulates. There is a thermostat available to switch any voltage up to mains for example to open and close a motorized valve.

The treadmill tank is slightly different in that we would fill the tank with mixed fresh H&C water through a TRV and more than likely use it there and then, sending it to waste or to a recycling tank. However if we have water left in the tank, I need to be able to maintain it's temperature and again have made a pumped re-circulation loop with a heat exchanger and thermostat. If the tank is empty we would switch off power to the pump and thermostat and close the valve.

What I'm trying to understand is how to connect all this stuff to the boiler so that any or all can draw heat from the central heating output from the boiler without risking overloading the boiler or valves as temperatures are reached and valves close.

Any advice would be gratefully received. I have had a battering in the past from one member ripping into me about not been competent if I have to ask the question so please if you're thinking that, please adopt the "if you can't say anything nice dont say anything at all"

Thank you

 

[Agile]

You are presumably a doctor when you talk about "my practice" and "surgery". If that is the case I would guess that you have spent about seven years doing medical training.

I would also expect that you would think that it would be odd for a plumber to be asking for advice on dealing with his medical health matters on a DIY basis.

The plain facts are that a GP earns about £90k p.a. and a plumber about £35k p.a.

Luckily there is an NHS for plumbers but no free NPS ( National Plumbing Service ) for doctors.

You already seem to have a good appreciation of plumbing matters so my suggestion is to take the advice of your CORGI registered boiler installer. He will be more than adequately qualified and experienced to be able to help you.

In any case a few minutes with a piece of paper and I am sure that you would be able to work it out for yourself. Just base your design on the cardiovascular system. If some of the flow rates are a little low then possibly you could expand the tubes and put a stent in place to retain the wider diameter and increased flow rate.

Tony

 

[AMEdinburgh]

No Agile, I'm a vet and got completely ripped off by a dishonest building company that took money and went bust leaving me with an unholy mess and no cash left. I either move the project forward myself or it won't happen at all Take the best part of 2/3 off your salary predictions to get the average for our profession in Scotland, oddly enough much the same as you claim for a plumber but we spend five unpaid years at college before we earn very little as a new graduate.

You might also be surprised to learn that folk often do ask for information about how they themselves might best care for their animals and much information is exchanged without charge on a daily basis

Why do folk seem unable to resist the temptation to have a pop at anyone asking a question. Here was me logging back in, as I though someone was being helpful

 

[Agile]

From BBC survey this month:-

Vets are the most profitable business category in Britain, with a 37% return on capital per year over the past two years, a new study suggests.

Information group CCH attributed their performance to a boom in pet insurance and demand for costlier procedures.

The next most profitable sectors were plasterers and greengrocers.

CCH said the increasing popularity of pet insurance policies helped to fund more expensive operations, including heart surgery, chemotherapy, and even alternative remedies, thus boosting vets' earnings.

According to Datamonitor, pet owners spent £380m on medical insurance for their beloved animals in 2006. This is forecast to reach almost £600m by 2011.

AVERAGE RETURN ON CAPITAL
Vets: 37%
Plasterers: 28.3%
Specialist fruit and vegetable retailers: 27.5%
Butchers: 23%
Joiners: 20.3%
Source: CCH

However, although vets might run their businesses efficiently, their average annual earnings are £36,635; the average family GP earns more than £100,000.

OK, well you are a vet then! But apart from changing the doctor and vet words and downgrading the salary the rest all applies.

I have recent insight into vets from nice conversations with a big animal vet demonstrating AI with an obliging cow and a student at the Royal Vet College and Sentry Farms on their open day at Potters Bar ealier this month.

I am not having "a pop" at you at all, just advising you to ask your boiler installer and to sit down with a pen and paper and I am sure you will be able to work out most of your answers yourself. All your animals have the same cardiovasuclar systems and heating is virtually identical in how they operate. Its impossible to answer such general questions. If you had posted layout diagrams and had any detailed questions then perhaps! But your boiler installer can see exactly what you have and give you accurate advice.

I am slightly surprised that vets earn so little as farmers always say how expensive their vets visits are ( £140 ? ) and I used to take my dog to the lady in Coventry who used to be employed by the NCDL but left to set up her own practice and charge "social" fees and was seriously hounded by the vets union for undercutting their ( inflated ) prices! She was a lovely friendly lady who just loved dogs! As I do.

Unfortunately my dog died a few months ago but she was about 14 and a german shepard/greyhound cross. She came to me from a rescue home at 3½ and I spent quite a time teaching her the 52 commands! I am a little reluctant to get another because it will take me a year to train and I might end up with a dog without sufficient intelligence to match my expectations!

Tony

 

[Agile]

The BBC web site supports the average earnings from a trustworthy source!

I have to admit I am surprised as I always thoughts vets averaged about £60-£90k. There is no NHS for animals. Although the PDSA do help a few people on the dole with their animals.

If you want to pay so much to have a cat repaired with no guarantee of any long term outcome then thats your choice. A replacement cat is very cheap with no installation charges and would have been the best financial choice. As my posting implied pet insurance is often a good investment.

I chose to take no pet insurance for my dog. Over her 10 year life with me apart from occasional services ( innoculations ) the only expense was a £35 consulatation fee when she had a foot wound which went a little septic and I was unable to easily get antibiotics because of the silly way the country makes most supplies prescription only. Being a cross breed she had no health problems with the hips like pure German Shepards and on a trial chasing my car she could do 35 mph before I chickened out!

I once treated a wild fox which lived in my garden before I got my dog. A very helpful vet's nurse filled in all the details for "Foxy" and supplied the drugs for me to administer in a jam bun. ( Foxes have a sweet tooth!" )

I previously had three sheep in my garden in London! But they ate everything in sight and so I took them to stay with my mother in Cornwall. They loved it so much that they stayed and multiplied until there were 14. At that point my mother thought thye were becoming too much for her and took them to market and I expect they all ended up as lamb chops!

Thats irrelevant though in this context!

We are acting as professionals in the heating world and I think my advice to the Vet is the best possible in the circumstances.

Tony Glazier


EDIT ( after reading last two posts.) I am a Libra and we are renown for total fairness in everything we do. I an not a "friendly" witness. I am wholly detached and give an impartial view, but not an "unfriendly" view!

 

[Norcon]

AMEdinburgh wrote

I need to be able to maintain it's temperature and again have made a pumped re-circulation loop with a heat exchanger and thermostat. If the tank is empty we would switch off power to the pump

Can I ask what you have devised in relation to the heat exchanger.
What type of heat exchanger have you used ?.

 

[AMEdinburgh]

Unfortunately, I've yet to find anyone with experience of Viessmanns in Edinburgh, so I don't yet have anyone to ask. I don't want to have the boiler installed, until the room for it is finished so it doesn't get damaged and also I don't want to allocate the funds that will be required for it when I have more urgent materials to purchase.

However, to get the rooms finished, I need to put the floors down which means finishing the underfloor pipework first, as although there is a crawl space, it is not generous.

Hence my desire to work out what to do now, perhaps benefitting from someone who has done similar before.

 

[Agile]

Have you looked for Viessmann approved installers in your area on their web site?

If we install your boiler the standard three year warranty is increased to FIVE years!

A good incentive to choose one of us is it not!

Tony

 

[AMEdinburgh]

Dear Norcon

It is the smallest Bowman heat exchangers rated at 30,000 BTU I have. They have 1 1/2" ends to be compatible with the large bore pool pipework. They have 1/2" side outlets to allow connection to the central heating circuit.

 

[AMEdinburgh]

Dear Agile

At the last time of looking there was no one actually in Edinburgh doing the boilers- just the solar systems. I might have to look further afield across the central belt, unless someone becomes accredited soon.

 

[AMEdinburgh]

Thank you, moderator, for removing the unpleasant postings

 

[Norcon]

Dear Norcon

It is the smallest Bowman heat exchangers rated at 30,000 BTU I have. They have 1 1/2" ends to be compatible with the large bore pool pipework. They have 1/2" side outlets to allow connection to the central heating circuit.

So your intention is to heat the treadmill tank with the pool heat exchanger using a pumped re circulation loop.

 

[AMEdinburgh]

I am going to fill it with a hot and cold supply through a thermostatic valve and a ball valve inlet, to provide an initial supply of water at a set temperature (82F). However if the tank water is not used immediately or only partly emptied I need to maintain the temperature, hence fitting the recirculating loop using the treadmill fill pump and a change over valve.

Also we would more than likely turn everything off without refilling the tank overnight, so although I have insulated the tank, any water left will cool overnight or over the weekend and need reheated (and added to) before the first filling of the treadmill.

 

[AMEdinburgh]

Dear Agile

In one of the deleted posts you asked me to be more specific.

In essence I am trying to have the boiler run both a modest central heating circuit and these two heat exchangers. Each of the heat exchangers is likely to be controlled by a simple two way motorised valve through a local water thermostat.

If I have a single circuit the wall thermostat, it will switch the boiler off regardless of any demand from the heat exchangers once the room in which it is situated, comes up to temperature.

If I don't have a thermostat, either the rooms with an open radiator could become roasting hot or if they all had thermostatic valves, the radiators could all be closed when the heat exchanger thermostats shut their local motorised valves resulting in a sudden stop in all circulation. This used to be a disaster for older systems and I suspect it still is but I may be wrong.

I am hoping there is a simple (and therefore clever) answer to this conundrum to allow the boiler to continue supplying the heat exchangers even when the desired room temperature has been reached.

Does that help?

 

[Agile]

Right, its all very simple!

Each circuit is controled by a motorised valve operated by the zone thermostat.

The solution is that you use the built in microswitch in the motor valves to bring on the boiler. A live is applied to the grey wire and that appears on the orange wire when the valve is open and that orange wire is connected to the boiler "call for heat" connection. All the orange wires are paralled so you can have as many zones as you like!

As the boiler has a pump over run to cool it down it is essential that an "auto bypass" valve is connected between flow and return BEFORE the motor valves so that circulation can still cool the boiler if all the motor valves have closed.

Simple isn't it!

If I recovered the old chip from my dead dog would a vet insert it into a replacement dog for me?

Tony