Can I do my own BW plans for attic ensuite?

[dagoof]

Was wondering if anyone can help - I've been living in a building site (aka rennovation project) for over a year now. Just found out my mrs is 3 months pregnant so I really need to get things moving along!

The previous owner had undertaken an attic conversion - it wasn't really finished (though there was a 'note of comfort'). It was split into 2 tiny rooms, I want to rip out the partition wall and make 1 big room with ensuite.

I'd emailed the attached images to the local council and they said it "requires a full technical specification for all works relating to the installation. You should also include an elevation plan showing the position of your drainage (soil vent pipe, waste vent pipe etc), mechanical ventilation etc."

By 'mechanical ventilation' I gather I would just whack an extractor into the plan (giving details on it's throughput?) but I'm a bit lost as to what's required for the rest, could anyone give any advice?

 

[DevilDamo]

Assuming the removal of the partition is non-load bearing, then a spec. you could use in forming an en-suite could be...

Internal partitions

100 x 50mm timber stud framework finished both sides with 12.5mm plasterboard and set coat plaster finish.

Partitions around habitable rooms and En-suite to be filled with sound insulation quilt.

Partitions around En-suite to be finished with moisture resistant grade plasterboard.

Provide additional studs and/or noggins where heavy fixtures (sanitaryware, wall cupboards, etc…) are located for additional fixing points.

Ventilation

Windows generally should be fitted with trickle ventilators to give background ventilation equivalent to 4000m².

En-suite to have mechanical extract ventilation capable of extracting min. 15 litres/sec. operating intermittently.

All ventilation to satisfy the requirements of the Building Regulations (Approved Document F).

Electrical safety

All new electrical work is to be designed, installed, inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671 (I.E.E. Wiring Regulations 16th Edition). The works are to be undertaken by an installer registered under a suitable electrical self-certification scheme, or alternatively by a suitably qualified person, with a certificate of compliance produced by that person to Building Control on completion of the works.

You can submit a Building Notice for the works with an "As Existing" and an "As Proposed" layout indicating drainage connections/terminations as well as spec. notes (as above) and that should be enough... for the time being anyway.

 

[Richard C]

Visit the Planning Portal;
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingregs/legislation/bregsexpbooklet

Worth a good browse before you start; lots of useful info about Building Regs. & procedures for making a submission & loft conversions in particular.

 

[dagoof]

Thanks DevilDamo, very helpful.

Just noticed I have to link to the pics - here they are:
//www.diynot.com/network/dagoof/albums/4941

Regarding insulation, do I need to specify? In the pitched roof there had been crappy old fibre board in there which I've replaced with 75mm kingspan (leaving 50mm airgap and backed with vapour barrier).

Moisture resistant plasterboard - would that be required for outer-facing of ensuite, as well as internal?

I'd had a plumber up for a quick look too - there's a waste pipe that runs up the side of the house and up through the roof he said he would connect into but I've no idea about technical aspects of drainage/connections. He said the 'run' could be tricky as we only have the depth of the floor joists (said a saniflow WC may or may not be needed - though he didn't recommend them).

Thanks too Richard, I'm in Scotland and know the regs are slightly different but will check that out anyway.

 

[DevilDamo]

Regarding insulation, do I need to specify? In the pitched roof there had been crappy old fibre board in there which I've replaced with 75mm kingspan (leaving 50mm airgap and backed with vapour barrier).

Insulation shouldn't come into it as you're not altering the roof. No harm in double checking with the BCO though but I can't see it being an issue.

Moisture resistant plasterboard - would that be required for outer-facing of ensuite, as well as internal?

Only required internally. You don't need it at all in reality but it's advisable and more of a good practice note similar to splash back tiles, etc... if necessary.

I'd had a plumber up for a quick look too - there's a waste pipe that runs up the side of the house and up through the roof he said he would connect into but I've no idea about technical aspects of drainage/connections. He said the 'run' could be tricky as we only have the depth of the floor joists (said a saniflow WC may or may not be needed - though he didn't recommend them).

That is always a tricky situation. Do you know which direction the joists run in too as that would also have a major impact. Worse comes to the worse, you may have to drop it internally and form a bulkhead in the space below?

I'm just putting together a quick "As Existing" and "As Proposed" drawing for you, which gives you an idea and scales of what the BCO may want to see.

 

[DevilDamo]

If you send an email to me at... [email protected], I will reply back with this drawing I've done for you.

Damo

 

[dagoof]

That would be amazing, thanks Damo!

 

[DevilDamo]

Emailed about 25mins ago Chris.

Hope that is of some use.

 

[noseall]

The previous owner had undertaken an attic conversion - it wasn't really finished

How do you mean not finished? Were these works subject to building control inspections and were not signed off or is the "conversion" a diy effort that bears no resemblance to building regulations?

I'd emailed the attached images to the local council and they said it "requires a full technical specification for all works relating to the installation.

Does this not mean floor joists, stairs, full spec heat loss, fire, electric etc?

 

[Richard C]

Moisture resistant plasterboard - would that be required for outer-facing of ensuite, as well as internal?

Only use Moisture resistant PB inside a bathroom or en-suite & it should be tanked in wet areas but you’d do better to use a decent waterproof tile backer board there. You can tile directly onto MR plasterboard but it must be primed if you want to plaster it.

I'd had a plumber up for a quick look too - there's a waste pipe that runs up the side of the house and up through the roof he said he would connect into but I've no idea about technical aspects of drainage/connections. He said the 'run' could be tricky as we only have the depth of the floor joists (said a saniflow WC may or may not be needed - though he didn't recommend them).

I would avoid Saniflow unless you have absolutely no choice. I don’t like the sound of your plumber saying “the run could be tricky”; you need to be sure he knows what he’s doing & does it properly. So many “plumbers” make a total pigs ear of waste & drainage as a quick look through the forum archive will show. We’ve only just seen a very good example of problems caused by not enough fall. I would advise you have at least have look at a design criteria; http://www.hunterplastics.co.uk/content/1/94/soil---waste-support.html
It’s really not that technical but will at least give you some idea of how he should be doing it!

As has already been pointed out; be very careful of any work undertaken by the previous owner; it could be OK but on the other hand it may be totally non-compliant meaning you may have to take it out & start again, the reason why your LABC want drawings & a build specification.

 

[dagoof]

Got some great great drawings knocked up by Damo, so thanks again for that.

Noseall - the previous owner was a joiner and it had been approved and started over 20 years ago (running up until god-knows when!) - AFAIK it's to plan and I do know the staircase meets regs and it is properly floored. I have no idea if it was signed off (my first property and didn't really know much about planning) but as mentioned there was 'notes of comfort' and when buying the lawyer didn't mention any problems. The studs and electrics were all up there but it was only half plasterboarded, no heating and had ancient insulation. I've removed what plasterboard was there and also replaced the insulation with 75mm Kingspan.

Richard - thanks again for the info. So could the backerboard just be used instead of MR plasterboard, and could it be tiled straight onto without priming? (the room will be tiled throughout).

Thanks for the heads up on the plumber - he's done other work and was a damn sight better than the last guy (everything leaked!) but I was paraphrasing that he was concerned about the run. It wasn't a proper meeting/quote I had him in for (he just popped in as he happened to be seeing a neighbour) so no measurements or anything were taken but he did say we may have to go with a saniflow or 'build-up' to compensate. I've just taken some measurements and it's 3.5m from the downpipe to the edge of where the ensuite would be (so add on 2.3m to the WC) and only a 18cm joist height in the floor.

Re. previous work - see above, most of it's gone anyway!

 

[Richard C]

I have no idea if it was signed off (my first property and didn't really know much about planning)

After a look at the dimensions on your sketches, I think you need to do some volume calculations to confirm if it’s below the maximum allowed under permitted development rights. If it’s larger or doesn’t meet other conditions, you will almost certainly need a planning application.

All building work on the conversion must comply with current Building Regulations & can either be done under a Full Plans Submission or a Building Notice; no real difference in cost (to your LABC) but a full plans submission is more or less approved from the drawings & technical spec you have to submit; this will involve a significant cost in technical fees unless your competent enough to prepare your own. Drawings for a planning application need only be quiet simple & as longs as you can use a pencil & a ruler or drawing software reasonably competently, would be within most people’s capabilities. Drawings for a B. Regs planning submission & a full technical spec. will require an understanding of B. Regs & significantly more expertise.

Richard - thanks again for the info. So could the backerboard just be used instead of MR plasterboard, and could it be tiled straight onto without priming? (the room will be tiled throughout).

I always use tile backer board in wet areas; most don’t need priming but always follow the tile adhesive manufacturer’s instructions. I would still use MR plaster board for the rest of the en-suite but you could use more expensive backer boards if you don’t need to plaster.

I've just taken some measurements and it's 3.5m from the downpipe to the edge of where the ensuite would be (so add on 2.3m to the WC) and only a 18cm joist height in the floor.

Your getting near the 6m unvented limit for a w/c & you may need either an additional stack to serve the en-suit or use an internal AAAV on a stub stack but your not going too meet the minimum fall required with in that joist height. There may be other options either above or below but its impossible to asses without a lot more information. Don’t dismiss the option of installing a new stack & foul drain connection specifically for the conversion; many are reluctant to do this but in reality it can be fairly straight forward depending on the drain layout & is not that much more work.

 

[DevilDamo]

I think you need to do some volume calculations to confirm if it’s below the maximum allowed under permitted development rights.

Since when does the installation of a bathroom/en-suite require planning approval (providing the building's not listed, etc...)?

 

[Richard C]

I think you need to do some volume calculations to confirm if it’s below the maximum allowed under permitted development rights.

Since when does the installation of a bathroom/en-suite require planning approval (providing the building's not listed, etc...)?

It doesn’t; perhaps I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick but I thought we were in the situation of normalisation/new submission for a loft conversion If it’s currently unauthorised, a brief look at the dimensions puts it pretty close to the max permitted under personal development.

 

[dagoof]

I'm going from fuzzy recollections here but as mentioned, I think the plans had be ok'd before the work started and we were told that as the work had been done (and has stood there for 20-odd years) it was ok. Do you know what this 'notes of comfort' means (can't seem to find reference on Google)? I was under the impression it was an 'ok' on the conversion. Or is it possible for me to check the 'status' of the conversion?

We bought the house without anyone raising any issues with the conversion - to be quite honest I'm reluctant to invite building control in now if it's going to cause a lot of problems! Not really sure what to do next...

Edit: congrats on the 5k btw