Carpenter wants un-agreed sums,

[frank999]

I have a day rate carpenter/kitchen/bathroom fitter @ £150 per day, who has worked for me full time for last 2 months on one job.
He has also worked for me for an additional 7 months prior to this on the same job, but as a general builder for £140 per day, building work is not his trade, and he has had to learn a fair amount on the job with me.

It was agreed his weekday hours were 8-5, with hours lunch, so 8 hour work day, unfortunately I can't find the 'hours lunch' bit written down, everything else though is.

Recently he has become a bit of a head ache, constantly Jockey'ing for more money, quoting all number of reasons I should pay him more, suggesting he can get more else where, and generally making me feel bad about employing him.
Recently he suggested we need to pay him time and a half for Saturday working, which I rejected.

Friday though he tells me he has been taking just half an hour for lunch, (I don't watch his every move, but my third eye tells me he takes about 45 minutes).
So he is now is asking me to pay him an extra half hour for the last 9 months of work, which is about £2000.
I never agreed to him taking half an hour for lunch, but did notice he wasn't taking the full hour, just thought he was being extra keen.

Do I owe him this £2000k ?? he has worked 'some of it', even if it wasn't agreed.

Over the last 5 weeks there have been a lot of arguments between us, he seems to have no shame picking holes in so many areas looking for some sort of angle to get more money, some of it has been justified, but most of it seems just opportunist, he makes it all very complicated, I get none of this from the other guys on-site.

I would pay him more money, but other trades picking up from him on his building work (ie studding etc) complain about his work standard, he thinks it/he's great, they think not.
He breaks the tools (power tools) you give him, the other trades shun him from letting him use their Dewalts and Makita's, they think he's a messy worker, I think he's a messy worker.

 

[Johnny Allround]

You don’t owe him 2k if he’s not chosen to use his hour lunch that’s his choice. Are you his main employer through the year or does he have other contacts he works for? Does he invoice you and you use his cscs card. You could be walking into a hmrc minefield with him. As for retaining his services it sounds like that boat has sailed along with some of your power tools.

 

[Stivino]

^^^ I agree ^^^

 

[mattylad]

Maybe look for a replacement first.

 

[Mottie]

No disrespect mate but I think you are an easy touch with tradesmen and word has got out. Didn’t you have problems with a builder recently? You've got two choices. Pay up and shut up or call their bluff, tell them you are the boss/customer and if they don’t like it they can do one. Personally, I’d never have someone on a day rate for 9 months. What are you building, a bock of flats?

 

[Johnny Allround]

What’s a bock of flats, Mottie.?

 

[pete50]

"Easy touch" is an understatement. Sack him.

 

[frank999]

Thanks all, all good points.

Bit tired of the power struggle with this bloke.

Through the stress, coming here lightens the load:

This made me chuckle ... 'As for retaining his services it sounds like that boat has sailed along with some of your power tools'
all of us onsite don't know how he manages to tread on, break, twist, bend, snap off the various components of expensive power tools (that aren't his, in fact he only has one tool - he bought recently).
It's been interesting to see how many parts you can buy for the quality tools, shame about the time it takes to dismantle and fit them, chinese puzzles from hell.

Does he invoice you and you use his cscs card. You could be walking into a hmrc minefield with him
The job has gone on far longer than envisaged, I am meant to be doing self billing with him as his Desktop skills are very poor, but am aware that we might be in IR35 territory if I am not careful.

Maybe look for a replacement first.
I am meeting someone onsite at 3pm today, recommendation from one of the other men onsite, who's work is excellent.

No disrespect mate:
None taken, yes I did have issues with another contractor - that one was meant to come back but has vanished, I decided to keep the £2k and will swallow a bit, will get others to finish off the work, I could persue court action, but life is too short. Peeling back some of what he delivered reveals a quick and dirty job, not what you'd expect of £1000 a week workmen. Its greedy and unprofessional, all covered over with a layer of plaster and paint, hence he's not been invited back onsite.

tell them you are the boss/customer and if they don’t like it they can do one
Will give someone else a go, that should change the dynamic, he seems to think I rely soley on him.

Personally, I’d never have someone on a day rate for 9 months.
He's stated he can get £175 a day, but as you say - he is employed almost full time, so he's doing alright to be paid in the manner I am paying him, it is solid, no gaps.

What are you building, a bock of flats?
A Bock is a fine German beer.
We've doubled a semi in size, didn't get going fully until mid sept.

"Easy touch" is an understatement. Sack him
I'd like to think he will regret acting as he has, he might do ... but then he might not. He has a family to feed back home, but I also have a business to run, I think he under-estimates me.

 

[Johnny Allround]

Sounds like he’s the biggest tool onsite if you ask me.

 

[Old Salt]

Remind him of his need to provide for his family and how will he do that if he p**ses you off.

 

[Mottie]

What’s a bock of flats, Mottie.?

It’s like a block without the 'l'.

 

[algas]

I used to have someone self employed but mainly working for me, he hardly had any tools, used to borrow loose / break almost anything he touched, I once found my transformer in a bucket drowned after being left out in heavy rain, he was most ****ed off when I let him go without payment after claiming the cost of the said tools against wages owed. BIN HIM.

 

[Mw Roofline]

People always think the grass is greener. I had a guy work for MwRoofline as a fascia fitter PAYE taking home £400 a week for 8 years. Ok it’s not fantastic money but he had van and fuel provided as well as all tools and clothes and boots etc, use of the van when he wants (he didn’t have a car), 28 days paid holiday, no weekend work, paid over Xmas and new year and a massive Xmas bonus each year. He left cause he thought he could go it alone and earn more money.
First few months I heard he was earning big, but then he realised he couldn’t sell or close, or manage his money and now he’s labouring for someone for £70 a day cash.

 

[frank999]

Sounds like he’s the biggest tool onsite if you ask me.
And that is saying it politely.

Remind him of his need to provide for his family and how will he do that if he p**ses you off.
He's been employed and paid fully through the Covid-19 lockdown, that almost didn't happen due to some funding issues.

he hardly had any tools, used to borrow loose / break almost anything he touched
Yup, thats him. Yes its funny how they turn once you make them responsible for the cost of their b****y ineptness.

People always think the grass is greener.
Very true, and they get greedy ... he tells me he is going to start out on his own after this job, but once he buys a van, some tools, insurance and any other number of expenses he doesn't have at the moment - he may look back, he's well looked after right now.

Met the recommended chippy on Saturday, only does kitchens, and received a call on way to me asking him to go full time on Monday with some one else, so he can only work weekends/bank holidays - will consider having him in to do the kitchens - will find out rates this week. Will keep looking for a replacement for the doors and other carpentry.

 

[Johnny Allround]

Good luck Frank hope it works out for you!