Carpenter wants un-agreed sums,
- Thread starter frank999
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Thanks all.
Monday morning I had what can be called a 'frank' discussion with the bloke, that went on for more than an hour, the more he insisted, the more I felt I was being screwed, so I stated clearly that I did not agree with his point of view and that I would not be paying more than was agreed, something he repeatedly tried to insist was incorrect, throwing any number of additional nonsensical arguments into the fray, I finally lost my rag, and asked him if he wanted to withdraw his labour (the actual words were not so polite) as I'd had enough of arguing the toss, I also called him a number of expletives ... after some of his reasoning just pushed a few buttons in my now wiery brain.
He didn't withdraw his labour, returned to work, and got to it.
Finally I thought the message had got through.
Today at 5.00pm, he tells me he still feels the situation is not right, and that he cannot sleep properly - I avoided getting embroiled in yet more BS with him, and walked away, but it still gave me a head ache.
Has he no shame.
Were is the best place to find a replacement, he fits doors, kitchens and bathrooms, and does general carpentry (skirting boards etc) - he never cleans up his mess, breaks power tools by standing on them, snaps off
the controls and burns out motors ... but thinks he's the dog b******s, I will not be looking for these latter qualities in any replacement.
Monday morning I had what can be called a 'frank' discussion with the bloke, that went on for more than an hour, the more he insisted, the more I felt I was being screwed, so I stated clearly that I did not agree with his point of view and that I would not be paying more than was agreed, something he repeatedly tried to insist was incorrect, throwing any number of additional nonsensical arguments into the fray, I finally lost my rag, and asked him if he wanted to withdraw his labour (the actual words were not so polite) as I'd had enough of arguing the toss, I also called him a number of expletives ... after some of his reasoning just pushed a few buttons in my now wiery brain.
He didn't withdraw his labour, returned to work, and got to it.
Finally I thought the message had got through.
Today at 5.00pm, he tells me he still feels the situation is not right, and that he cannot sleep properly - I avoided getting embroiled in yet more BS with him, and walked away, but it still gave me a head ache.
Has he no shame.
Were is the best place to find a replacement, he fits doors, kitchens and bathrooms, and does general carpentry (skirting boards etc) - he never cleans up his mess, breaks power tools by standing on them, snaps off
the controls and burns out motors ... but thinks he's the dog b******s, I will not be looking for these latter qualities in any replacement.
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Recommendation from other tradesmen, job centre, relatives, word of mouth? Put an ad on faceache or something then give them a trial to see how it goes?
I normally get details of who to use from other trades I have used in the past.
I normally get details of who to use from other trades I have used in the past.
Id get shot of him, I suspect he is cash in hand and pushing his luck as a general non trades general learning on the job at your expense and giving you a hard time. Watch out for your tools if he has none, he might think about helping himself. Although London rates if he is good probably not a bad rate to get him on.
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My other men on site have suggested someone, so am in contact with one, recommendation as you say is the best way.
He has been paid BACs under 'self billing', although I still have yet to get him to sign paperwork for that, he has been informed in writing that those were the terms.
pushing his luck as a general non trades general learning on the job at your expense and giving you a hard time
Feels that way ...
He has been paid BACs under 'self billing', although I still have yet to get him to sign paperwork for that, he has been informed in writing that those were the terms.
pushing his luck as a general non trades general learning on the job at your expense and giving you a hard time
Feels that way ...
He is trying it on -imagine if you had agreed, he wouldve got a nice £2k bunce, we could all do with one of those (I can PM you my BACS details, if you are offering
).Its really hard employing people -it is all about trust. It is very hard to quantify if somebody is hard working, fast, accurate and value for money and on site work, trust is required because you wont be there every minute of the day.
Sadly the frequent breaking of tools and not tidying up after himself is symptomatic of a person that doesnt respect others.
I have to say, £150 per day in London seems cheap -but I guess it depends on whether he is a fully skilled chippie or an 'improver'.
Surely he's not a professional chippy and neither a diy, otherwise he would have his own tools.
When i started in my 20s i acquired needed tools and more in a year or so.
Then as time went by and i did more jobs, i bought more tools and upgraded to better ones.
If he's coming on site without even a set of chisels and a saw, he's a labourer.
In london they get max £120/day as there are plenty of them.
Foreigners work at £80 cash.
When i started in my 20s i acquired needed tools and more in a year or so.
Then as time went by and i did more jobs, i bought more tools and upgraded to better ones.
If he's coming on site without even a set of chisels and a saw, he's a labourer.
In london they get max £120/day as there are plenty of them.
Foreigners work at £80 cash.
we could all do with one of those
exactly - sure he is convinced I have a magic money tree in the garden, the amount I am paying I try to make as fair as possible in view of his current standard of work.
Its really hard employing people -it is all about trust.
Agreed - when there is trust everything mostly works, but try and opportune me, and I then doubt a lot of things, which adds a whole other layer of stress to employing that person.
He is an EU citizen from one of the poorer members - who arrived 4 years ago off the boat, I took him in, he couldn't speak hardly a word of the Queens, however he has been an 'improver' ever since, he is miles better than when he arrived, and can now at least speak some degree of spoken English, but when he first started his working practices were bizarre to say at best, terrible at worst, but I liked the chap, he wanted to learn was keen and we got on.
The language thing has been barrier, he cannot read any English, so I have had to guide him on all matters of Building Regs, or any other matters that require an understanding of instruction.
All through our relationship he has kept trying to screw me at various points ... I have dealt with other cultures when I have run other types of business, who have also tried to do the same, it seemed it was in their blood, they had no shame - I would have been embarrassed, but they felt non of it, I get the same impression of this nonsense here ... difference is its a closer longer working relationship, rather than the provision of an ad hoc service, I understand he needs the most he can get for his labours, but feel his wage is reasonable in view of the lower standard of work I receive, as well as a load of other random rubbish that he seems to throw my way.
He may have been a bit cheaper, but I accepted less, so the arrangement probably suited us both, but its probably time for a change.
Next job I have decided to bite the buillet and pay more money, but use a person with specific skills for just those specific tasks, rather than pay less (ie £150 per day) but then have that person doing a broader range of jobs that could be done by a lesser 'skilled' person, as you say there are plenty of labourers available, and for less than £150.
To rub salt in the wounds he has taken all the years of my putting up with bizarre rubbish work, whilst being paid, learning and improving, I know he has catalogued everything carefully I have shown him saving pictures on his camera phone - and now tells me he is joining forces with 3 other EU workers to start there own business when he is finished here.
I have learnt this type of character will forever jockey unfairly for position with whomever he is working for, they have no shame.
exactly - sure he is convinced I have a magic money tree in the garden, the amount I am paying I try to make as fair as possible in view of his current standard of work.
Its really hard employing people -it is all about trust.
Agreed - when there is trust everything mostly works, but try and opportune me, and I then doubt a lot of things, which adds a whole other layer of stress to employing that person.
He is an EU citizen from one of the poorer members - who arrived 4 years ago off the boat, I took him in, he couldn't speak hardly a word of the Queens, however he has been an 'improver' ever since, he is miles better than when he arrived, and can now at least speak some degree of spoken English, but when he first started his working practices were bizarre to say at best, terrible at worst, but I liked the chap, he wanted to learn was keen and we got on.
The language thing has been barrier, he cannot read any English, so I have had to guide him on all matters of Building Regs, or any other matters that require an understanding of instruction.
All through our relationship he has kept trying to screw me at various points ... I have dealt with other cultures when I have run other types of business, who have also tried to do the same, it seemed it was in their blood, they had no shame - I would have been embarrassed, but they felt non of it, I get the same impression of this nonsense here ... difference is its a closer longer working relationship, rather than the provision of an ad hoc service, I understand he needs the most he can get for his labours, but feel his wage is reasonable in view of the lower standard of work I receive, as well as a load of other random rubbish that he seems to throw my way.
He may have been a bit cheaper, but I accepted less, so the arrangement probably suited us both, but its probably time for a change.
Next job I have decided to bite the buillet and pay more money, but use a person with specific skills for just those specific tasks, rather than pay less (ie £150 per day) but then have that person doing a broader range of jobs that could be done by a lesser 'skilled' person, as you say there are plenty of labourers available, and for less than £150.
To rub salt in the wounds he has taken all the years of my putting up with bizarre rubbish work, whilst being paid, learning and improving, I know he has catalogued everything carefully I have shown him saving pictures on his camera phone - and now tells me he is joining forces with 3 other EU workers to start there own business when he is finished here.
I have learnt this type of character will forever jockey unfairly for position with whomever he is working for, they have no shame.
Why don’t you get the next one on a price to finish. Get a firm quote, don’t change any specs and don’t pay up front or is that asking too much? Personally, I’d never have anyone on a day rate - it’s an open cheque book as far as I’m concerned. Are you onsite at all times or are you leaving him to his own devices?
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This is the best advice.
Only get someone on a daily rate if they're acting as your labourer and you're running the show.
Then you are in control of what, when and how things are done.
All good advice, thanks.
Only get someone on a daily rate if they're acting as your labourer and you're running the show.
This is in essence how i how work with him, I'm onsite everyday, all day - I'm on the tools with him for part of the day.
Why don’t you get the next one on a price to finish
And have a water tight contract ... that would make my life easier, I did have that onsite previously (I've posted about that experience here), but they worked 'too' fast - and things weren't done properly or messily, loads of snots in the cavity, omitted venting in flat roof, soil pipes under floor supported on blobs of foam, just lots and lots of (lazy) stuff ... this fixed price lot decided that they needed more money to finish (on two occassions) which I refused to pay, they walked off site, I withheld a couple of grand owed ... they never came back and I have kept the money. I'm out of pocket by a reasonable amount, however I decided not to chase them, life is too short.
I have two other men that have been on a day rate for the last 6 months, bit slower - but I'm happy, good standard of work, no constant haggling and battering over money, hard workers, what you need to run a business. Next job I will up the pay rate, as they have proven themselves.
Then you are in control of what, when and how things are done.
That seems to be where I want to be, its done to your standard, after all you are left with it long after the worker has left the site.
Something I have learnt here is - employing an 'improver' (good label for this type) is a specific kind of employment experience.
Maybe its better to have someone on the job who already knows his area ... and can just go to it, you both know the value, and agree to it ... and forward you go.
When I retire, I think I'll write a book about it ... but before then, has anyone got there before me ?
Only get someone on a daily rate if they're acting as your labourer and you're running the show.
This is in essence how i how work with him, I'm onsite everyday, all day - I'm on the tools with him for part of the day.
Why don’t you get the next one on a price to finish
And have a water tight contract ... that would make my life easier, I did have that onsite previously (I've posted about that experience here), but they worked 'too' fast - and things weren't done properly or messily, loads of snots in the cavity, omitted venting in flat roof, soil pipes under floor supported on blobs of foam, just lots and lots of (lazy) stuff ... this fixed price lot decided that they needed more money to finish (on two occassions) which I refused to pay, they walked off site, I withheld a couple of grand owed ... they never came back and I have kept the money. I'm out of pocket by a reasonable amount, however I decided not to chase them, life is too short.
I have two other men that have been on a day rate for the last 6 months, bit slower - but I'm happy, good standard of work, no constant haggling and battering over money, hard workers, what you need to run a business. Next job I will up the pay rate, as they have proven themselves.
Then you are in control of what, when and how things are done.
That seems to be where I want to be, its done to your standard, after all you are left with it long after the worker has left the site.
Something I have learnt here is - employing an 'improver' (good label for this type) is a specific kind of employment experience.
Maybe its better to have someone on the job who already knows his area ... and can just go to it, you both know the value, and agree to it ... and forward you go.
When I retire, I think I'll write a book about it ... but before then, has anyone got there before me ?
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