Cataract in expansion tank

[Calculus]

I don't think they could possibly charge me for this.

That should be done at no extra cost!

Interesting about age. I don't see being young as any excuse.

But I am aware that some young people are somewhat irresponsible!

Where I used to work they rather liked young people in some quite responsible practical jobs.

Tony

I don't think they could possibly charge me. Which might be problematical as they will hardly be in a hurry to do a job that will earn them nothing. I'll find out tomorrow

 

[Calculus]

I have an update on the story .

For those new to the saga, a plumber fitted a new pump to my system in August and (probably) since then, hot water has been circulating through the feed and expansion tank at a fast rate (one pint a minute). Magnet tests show iron deposits in some of the pipes, and the designated feed pipe at the boiler being cooler than the return pipe (i.e the pipe with the Fennox filter) suggests the pump had been fitted the wrong way round. On advice received here I turned the pump down to between low and medium, sufficient to stop the drainage into the feed and expansion tank.

The plumber who fitted the pump in August called this morning. He is insistent he fitted the pump the right way round, and says it will only fit one way (the right way). I showed him the tests I had done with the magnet and the designated feed pipe being cool compared with the return pipe. He thought the cause was sludge in the system. He opened the Fennox filter and showed me it was seriously caked with sediment. That sediment had accumulated in the four months since the last service. He put some powerful cleaner into the system and drained it (hose attached to an outlet by the hall radiator). He advised me to phone the firm this afternoon to arrange for the radiators to be individually removed and flushed (this was done about five years ago). He said the alternative was replacing all the radiators (which were in the house when I bought it in 1987) but he thought they looked solid and don't leak, so we agreed replacing them would be overkill....at least until we've tried flushing. He reset the pump speed to medium.

This all sounds like a good plan, but....I've just switched on the boiler and found hot water is draining into the feed and expansion tank even faster than before. I've measured it at 2 pints every 3 minutes. I would value opinions on this. Is this a consequence of the clean he has just performed....guessing wildly here...could it be the cleaner has dislodged sediment which has settled somewhere else, causing another (and perhaps worse) blockage? Or is it normal for this draining into the feed and expansion tank to occur immediately after a clean? And should I leave everything as is until the plumber returns to do the complete system flush, or should I immediately turn the pump speed down again to stop this draining?

 

[Agile]

Oh dear!

We have told you what the problem is and what needs to be done.

Also that the fault will have caused a lot of sludge in the system.

You should make a formal complaint to the firm, ask them to correct the pump and to power flush that system all at no cost to you.

How on earth have you allowed yourself to be bamboozled by this fellow?

We try to help you but it is your own house!

If you choose not to follow our advice then you are going to pay this inadequate firm another £500-£600.

Possibly the guy who came to you is on a commission basis of pay.

Tony

 

[Calculus]

Oh dear!

We have told you what the problem is and what needs to be done.

Also that the fault will have caused a lot of sludge in the system.

You should make a formal complaint to the firm, ask them to correct the pump and to power flush that system all at no cost to you.

How on earth have you allowed yourself to be bamboozled by this fellow?

We try to help you but it is your own house!

If you choose not to follow our advice then you are going to pay this inadequate firm another £500-£600.

Possibly the guy who came to you is on a commission basis of pay.

Tony

On the basis of what you have said I will not go back to this firm until I have got another plumber to come and adjudicate. If this second plumber confirms the pump has been put in back to front then I will cast the current plumbing firm into the outer darkness. A shame as they have done all my plumbing for the last 15 years or so and by and large have been reliable.

I can understand your disbelief that a householder allows himself to be 'bamboozled' by an incompetent tradesman but try to put yourself in my shoes. I am not a tradesman of any type. My profession is computer programming. My working life is entirely divorced from the real world of pipes, boilers and physical objects generally. There is no way I can have the confidence to tell a professional plumber that he has installed a pump the wrong way round. All I can do is ask other plumbers, like yourself, to give an opinion, and spread these opinions out on the table. As I said, this I will do. I will engage another local plumber and spread the observed facts and the varied opinions before him. So it's not accurate to say I am not following your advice. I am grateful for all the advice I have had on DIYNOT. I am simply not qualified to make an unassailable judgment!

 

[Agile]

But even a programmer should be able to understand the concept of the flow and return connections to the boiler!

I am sure your programs work in the designated order.

Unless you worked for Tesco Bank of course!

Tony

 

[Calculus]

But even a programmer should be able to understand the concept of the flow and return connections to the boiler!

I am sure your programs work in the designated order.

Unless you worked for Tesco Bank of course!

Tony

Good one! But no flow chart or logic diagram I have ever seen is as incomprehensible as plumbing systems. When I look in the airing cupboard it's like copper spaghetti, pipes going this way and that way and who knows where. How do I know there is not some curious circumstance by which a blockage in one pipe diverts the water by some circuitous course into entirely the reverse direction to its intended course? I will have a look at the various DIY books I have on the shelf and see if I can find an explanation I can understand....but those books were likely written by hacks rather than plumbers.

I have been back to the firm. What they are going to do is send out one of the two founders. I know both these people and they are definitely competent. I will not accept any assurance on this pump from them unless they actually dismantle it and prove it is connected correctly, AND give me a convincing explanation why the designated feed pipe is cooler than the exit pipe (which it still is after this morning, but the difference is less obvious).

 

[Agile]

At least plumbing does not intentionally hide what it is doing like Windows 10 !

 

[Calculus]

At least plumbing does not intentionally hide what it is doing like Windows 10 !

This might not be the best time to tell you my last job title was Microsoft Systems Developer

 

[Agile]

You don't need any other explanation other than that the pump is fitted the wrong way round!

Searching here will show that it is not that unusual!

 

[Agile]

This might not be the best time to tell you my last job title was Microsoft Systems Developer

Well, I hope you left at the XP stage!

Simple, stable and what many people even keep going in spite of the lack of free support.

Apparently the Met Police have 10,000 units still on XP and they pay for ongoing support

Tony

 

[Calculus]

You don't need any other explanation other than that the pump is fitted the wrong way round!

Searching here will show that it is not that unusual!

Good suggestion, which I should have thought of . I will do some archaeology on previous threads.

 

[Calculus]

Well, I hope you left at the XP stage!

Simple, stable and what many people even keep going in spite of the lack of free support.

Apparently the Met Police have 10,000 units still on XP and they pay for ongoing support

Tony

This is often reported on in the computer press. Many commercial applications are going to be stuck on XP for years, and Microsoft is quietly supporting these systems, which include systems running on vital medical equipment. There is a registry hack you can do to fool Microsoft into thinking you are one of these cases, and so get free security updates (it was covered in the September 2014 Computer Shopper)...I've not heard MS has tightened up on this so it probably still works. I have moved on to Windows 10 but I was happiest with XP and Office 2003. Most IT commentators (or at least the ones who write in PC Pro and other magazines) have reluctantly come round to supporting Windows 10.

 

[Agile]

Don't MS realise there is something wrong when people buy a new unit with Win 10.

Then PAY for an "upgrade" to Win 7 !

 

[Calculus]

Don't MS realise there is something wrong when people buy a new unit with Win 10.

Then PAY for an "upgrade" to Win 7 !

I think MS know exactly what they are doing. Windows 10 now runs as a service rather than an operating system, and there is fear that at some point MS will start charging an annual fee rather than sell perpetual licences as now. This won't affect current builds but if it's done it will affect all new computers sold after the change - pay, say, £50 a year to Microsoft or go and find another operating system. For those of us who are dependant on Microsoft that will be a serious blow.

 

[Calculus]

Those who contributed to this thread might be interested to know its resolution. The second plumber/installer has just left. It took him ten seconds to determine that the first plumber, as Tony and others diagnosed, had in fact installed the pump the wrong way. All he did today was feel the pipes above and below the pump and twiddle the speed knob and listen for the back pumping, and pronounced judgment instantly. All fixed now (without charge of course) and the house is heating up again. I think the first plumber is likely to be on the end of a rollicking, not so much for doing the job wrong, but for insisting he'd done it right after a second visit. I'm told the system ought to be cleaned out but it's not so clogged as to need immediate action, and can be left till spring. It looks like I have every right to demand these people do that gratis but at the moment I'm feeling inclined to cut my losses and look for a new plumbing firm...preferably a one man company so I know I'll be getting a man who's proved himself. I've got a few months to think about it. Once again, thanks to Tony and other contributors for accurate diagnosis and teaching me some of the mysteries of hot water systems