Ceiling Rose Confusion

[EkPosh]

Hi,

Can someone please explain to me what is happening here? I was looking to fit a new light and removing the ceiling rose, I am faced with this:

So - one lights, 2 switches. You can't see from this photo but there are actually 4 cables (can only really see 3 here). The one on the very right is confusing me as its 4 core. The red is obviously the live, the yellow has a sheath and is therefore the switch live and obvs the earth. But what on earth is that neutral doing that seems to go back into ceiling? (or - is that not neutral but a switch that goes to the other switch?) I also confused by the red (live) that also seems to go back up. Any clues appreciated!

 

[Taylortwocities]

Perfectly standard loop in lighting ceiling rose, except that you have an additional 3-core & earth cable.
Post a photo of the actual terminals
Do not disconnect anything until you have done that!

PS what room is this light in?

 

[EkPosh]

TTC, thanks for your reply. This is a hallway light. It has 2 switches. My confusion is as follows:
- why the extra 3-core and earth cable? That 3 core cable has a switch live in it, so I am assuming that must go to one of the switches? Is that right?
- I have 3 neutrals in this rose (as you can see below). Surely this is not right, would I not expect a neutral from loop in, and then one going to loop out? What is the 3rd neutral?
- and what is the random live that disappears into the ceiling? This is where I am confused as that cable has a neutral (that goes in rose) but then a live that doesn't?

 

[FrodoOne]

Without seeing the terminal connections, I would suspect that (for some strange reason) a 3-core & earth cable - with the Blue wire NOT used - has been used as the cable to the Switch.
With the Blue wire not doing anything, about 150 mm of it has been "poked up" into the ceiling void.
(If so, it could be used - if ever one requires a Neutral at the Switch !)

The other strange thing is that one 2-core (Black & Red) & earth cable has only the Black "used", with the (unused?) Red wire also being "poked up" into the ceiling void.
(I really cannot imagine where that single Neutral (?) - and Earth - is coming from or going to.)

Presumably, the other 2-core & earth cables are the incoming and outgoing (to another Light) Lines and Neutrals.

(Just because the insulation on a wire is Red or Blue it does not mean that the wire concerned is acting as a Line or Neutral respectively.
It may not be doing anything, as I believe is the case here !)


The photo was posted while I was "composing".
As I wrote
"Just because the insulation on a wire is Red or Blue it does not mean that the wire concerned is acting as a Line or Neutral respectively."

Pull the Red and Blue wires down. It is highly probable that they are only about 150 mm in length and not connected to anything.

The main thing "different" in your situation is that you seem to have an extra Neutral - and Earth - going somewhere.

You could disconnect that Neutral and see what then doesn't work !

 

[EkPosh]

Thanks, the only thing I suspect is I have an outdoor light. Is it possible that this outdoor light has been added (outside of the usual in / out loop)?

- Hard to explain, but one switch that controls this indoor light (rose of which the photo is) in on a 3 gang switch (middle one as per photo below). From that switch, there is a red loop that you can clearly see (i.e the L1 has a live wire connected to the COM of another switch that operates the outside light) - see below. It nearly seems to me that the outside light is getting a live feed via the switch?

- as the indoor light has 2 switches (switch 2 is very simple, one wire in each terminal), I would expect this switch (middle one pictured) to have 2 wires in both L1 and L2. As you can see, it does, but as explained above, the second one is looped into another switch.

I'm no electrician but I am curious. I feel I need someone proper to have a look, but my guess is somehow the outside light is fed via this switch so those blue and red wires have something to do with that.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Hard to tell from the photo of the switch. Need a pic from a bit further out, and for it to be in focus!

But very likely the extra wires are something to do with the external light. There are 101 ways to wire stuff up so if needs an experienced eye, probably on site, to discover what exactly is going on.

 

[EkPosh]

Thanks TTC. I took that photo a while ago when putting a new switch in.

I now to sort the ceiling rose out and change it to just 2 wires for a new fitting. I have purchased wago connectors and boxes, and the way I see it is essentially copy the wiring over (i.e. all 3 lives in one connector, all 4 neutrals in 1 connector + flex to go to new light, switched live in another connector + flex to go to new light, all 4 earths in one connector - new lamp doesn't need an earth). I'd usually be comfortable with all that, but this has thrown me off.

I have managed to draw a picture of all the wires and a combination of the outside light and 2 indoor switches and I can make it work on a diagram. How safe or whether it conforms I don't know, but I'll get someone to look into it.

Much appreciated.

Alex

 

[FrodoOne]

Thanks, the only thing I suspect is I have an outdoor light. Is it possible that this outdoor light has been added (outside of the usual in / out loop)?

- Hard to explain, but one switch that controls this indoor light (rose of which the photo is) in on a 3 gang switch (middle one as per photo below). From that switch, there is a red loop that you can clearly see (i.e the L1 has a live wire connected to the COM of another switch that operates the outside light) - see below. It nearly seems to me that the outside light is getting a live feed via the switch?

- as the indoor light has 2 switches (switch 2 is very simple, one wire in each terminal), I would expect this switch (middle one pictured) to have 2 wires in both L1 and L2. As you can see, it does, but as explained above, the second one is looped into another switch.

I'm no electrician but I am curious. I feel I need someone proper to have a look, but my guess is somehow the outside light is fed via this switch so those blue and red wires have something to do with that.

It was not until Post #3 that you indicated that this Light was 2-way switched.

The set-up which you have may be as shown in http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/d/d0/TwoWaySwitching.gif
(BUT there are other possibilities. In

at 9:52 another arrangement using a 3-core cable is shown. The connection in the above diagram is shown at 12:35)

You will see that there are 3 wires running between the First (near) switch and the Second (far) switch and it may be because 3-wire (and earth) cable was used here this cable was continued up to the Rose - with the Blue wire not used on this "leg".


As Taylortwocities wrote, "Need a pic from a bit further out, and for it to be in focus!".
However, a picture of both switches would be better, with an indication of which switch it is (Near or Far / First or Second) and an indication of what any other switches on the same "gang" are doing.

Again, I very much doubt if the Red and Blue wires "poked up" into the ceiling void are doing anything.

 

[EFLImpudence]

all 4 neutrals in 1 connector

 

[EkPosh]

Not sure if this one is much better (its old and tidier now). So 3 gang switch. Let's ignore the far one, it's irrelevant.
- Middle switch controls the indoor light. You will note a yellow wire out of COM at the bottom (presumably going to the other switch - also pictured). We then have a blue and yellow in another terminal, which I assume is the switched live (yellow) going to the light and the blue is going to the second switch (the one that is poked up into the ceiling). We have then two lives in the final terminal. This would make sense, as I then have a live, a switched live and the "blue one" going to the other switch. I think that accounts for all the wires in the switch cable and may explain the blue cable poked up (going between switches?)

- You will see one of the lives is connected into the nearside switch which controls the outside light. This seems off - and I think the outside switch is getting it's live from here, rather than a loop. There is then another live going "out" - I wonder if this is the live that's poked into the ceiling and then effectively ending up in switch 2. The nearside switch then has the switched live (blue) going out.

I know this is so hard to follow!! It all works so I assume there is no issue, but when it comes to electricity, I don't like to ASSUME

I guess, in principle, is it POSSIBLE that the outside light is getting its live from its switch (via the other switch)? This would then explain the "extra" neutral that is presumably coming from the outside light.

SWITCH 1 (MIDDLE CONTROLS INDOOR LIGHT / NEARSIDE IS OUTDOOR):

INDOOR SWITCH 2:

 

[EkPosh]

Sorry!!!! 3

 

[sparkwright]

Hi,

Can someone please explain to me what is happening here? I was looking to fit a new light and removing the ceiling rose, I am faced with this:

View attachment 253484

So - one lights, 2 switches. You can't see from this photo but there are actually 4 cables (can only really see 3 here). The one on the very right is confusing me as its 4 core. The red is obviously the live, the yellow has a sheath and is therefore the switch live and obvs the earth. But what on earth is that neutral doing that seems to go back into ceiling? (or - is that not neutral but a switch that goes to the other switch?) I also confused by the red (live) that also seems to go back up. Any clues appreciated!

The blue is joined to red in a connector, which forms the switched live for a light in another room or somewhere.

A 3 core and earth cable has been used for the switch cable - to serve to different lights.

 

[terryplumb]

Those metal switchplates must be earthed ,the earth conductors should connect to their earth terminal

 

[EkPosh]

Those metal switchplates must be earthed ,the earth conductors should connect to their earth terminal

Thanks Terryplumb. They were the old ones. Earthed now for sure. One thing I made sure to do. Cheers

 

[SUNRAY]

My interpretation: